ECT Is "Hell" divine torture or divine justice?
- Thread starter revpete
- Start date
Neither. Its a choice. Man choose whether or not to follow God, and his own choice decides where he will spend eternity.
Believing that the wages of sin really is DEATH instead of eternal life on fire is grossly underestimating how seriously God takes sin? You should think this through.
Reread the verse, and then tell me what it says.
Does it say that the basanismos lasts forever?
Or does it say that the smoke will?
Read Romans 6:23 and tell me what it says that the wages of sin is.
I think you know what it says. One word, can you say it? Here's a hint, it's not eternal conscious torment.
According to God's word, what is the wages of sin?
(read Romans 6:23 to discover what God believes is the wages of sin)
From man's perspective, the wages of sin is eternal conscious torment in hell. From God's perspective, the wages of sin is death. We learn what God thinks about sin in the Bible. Some people enjoy their tradition more than the Bible, so they believe in eternal conscious torment in hell instead of what the Bible says. They are unwise, they see only from man's perspective.
Livelystone
New member
This is true as is God's Law is a fiery law designed to try and to burn all that is not acceptable to God
The grave is a prison where those who do not make their peace with God in this life will serve their full sentence in the next life.
Matt 5: 23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
So will Christians be punished who know their Fathers will but do not do it !!!
Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
I wanted to see what the majority of opinion was. It seems that most who have posted do not believe in an eternal "Hell." BTW Hell or Hades does not always mean the grave as fzappa posted. Perhaps a little study is order for him? My opinion is that I believe in a literal place of eternal punishment, I am not an annihilationist. There is election, there is reprobation, there is good there is evil, there is heaven, there is Hell. Scripture does teach a place of eternal, conscious punishment where the wicked of every generation will be consigned on the last day. Consider, if it were not so, how could God be perfectly just and holy. People do not like it, they try to get around it by reasoning it away. Scripture is misused and distorted (sometimes out of ignorance) to theologically dismiss it. However, if one follows the golden rule of herminutics ie, always interpret literally except if the context dictates otherwise, the only conclusion IMO one can come to is yes, Hell, Hades is real!
The real question is why do sincere people try to substitute a lie for Biblical truth
Pete
That is not hell ... that is the lake of fire. Death and hell shall be cast into the lake of fire. Perhaps a little study is in order.
way 2 go
Well-known member
where there is smoke there is fire
:think:
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
so are you dead?
The cat enjoys them.
death. complete seperation from God. for eternity. that is an indescribable pain. unimaginable
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The same applies to the words "destroy" and "perish". They don't mean "ceased to exist".
They are more akin with the meaning of a state of ruin.
Coupled with the fact that "death" doesn't have to mean "cease to exist", you should consider how this all fits in with the scriptures that do present the dead/perished with conscious existence.
Few have picked up on that--
2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
LA
are you conscious when you are asleep?
are you conscious when you are dead?
are you conscious when you suffer the second death in the lake of fire?
I have noted that the most condemning people are those whose minds and hearts think God is cruel like them.
It suits their personality.
It is better to get to know the real Jesus Christ.
Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
Luk 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Luk 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
LA
musterion
Well-known member
What do you think "ages of ages" means?
If it said the smoke of their destruction, you'd have a point. But it doesn't. It says the smoke of their torment will go up for ages of ages.
Livelystone
New member
"Ages" have a beginning and end
Ages of Ages is the "time of their sentence" Jesus taught this in Matt5;26
God's laws never prescribed torture without end and God does not change other than repenting of judgment and in its place extending mercy.
When there was physical torture such as whippings the amount of lashes could not lawfully exceed 39+1 (a beginning and an end to the judgment)
Other sentences were of a duration that were to restore what was lost by the victim often through servitude, however, even then at the end of a Jubilee servants were set free
musterion
Well-known member
That may be true, but show us where the Bible says "ages of ages" is limited.
Jesus said that one won't be released until he has paid "the last cent." How does an unbeliever "pay off" a sin debt when the reason he's in the Lake of Fire is because he rejected Christ's death for his sin? How does he "pay off" having taken the Mark? Your point here sounds rather purgatorial. Are you one of those stealth Catholics?
First, the word is torment, not torture. Not the same thing.
Second, you may as well take a razor blade and cut Revelation right out of your Bible, then, because the idea of torment without end seems to be exactly what John was told to write.
Irrelevant. If one dies having refused God's grace, there's no hope for him after death. If he takes the Mark, there's no hope for him in life or after death. The smoke of his TORMENT will ascend forever.
The rest of your post is ignored as irrelevant. We're talking about John said about the Lake of Fire here so your references have no bearing.
Livelystone
New member
The definition of the words used describe a limited amount of time
How do you explain Jesus speaking of some Christians being beaten with more stripes than others will receive when the purpose of the whip was to remove chunks of flesh off of a persons back while inflicting great pain AKA torture and torment?....... are you one of those MAD persons who chose to disregard all Scriptures that do not support their doctrine?
Not at all, unless you are going to insist that in order to understand Revelations one has to believe there are going to be dragons in the universe hurling a third of the stars to earth when just one would completely destroy all of the earth?
Baloney!
You are leaving out the law of the second passover for anyone who missed the first one because of either being "on a far away journey" as are all before they come to God, or for touching a dead body when every "body" that has ever been born on earth is born into a body already condemned to death
As the scriptures teach Jesus is the savior of the world and not just those who believe but especially those who believe and everyone will bow and worship Him........ it is not a matter of if but only when. People who teach that millions of persons who never heard of Jesus are forever caught off from a God that so loved the world that He appeared in the flesh and suffered and died for it, have no concept nor understanding of anything of God let alone the next life
The Lake of Fire is the second death for those who do not die to the flesh in this life that is the time of the first death
Your ignorance is noted and is why because of the sin of unbelief in the truth your ministry is not followed by signs and wonders.
Because you may be thinking I may be a promoter of Universalisim I am not, however I do belive in the resurrection and power of God to change any "vessel of wrath" he decicides to change just to make his power known as He did to me when my time of living in rebellion to Him was up.
Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: