Is America great?

[Sancocho]

When I was young, the US has just freed the world from fascism, and was standing up to Soviet agression. The Marshal Plan and the Truman Doctrine guaranteed the eventual destruction of Communism as a world threat.

On the other hand, many states kept millions of people in subjection with no civil rights the majority didn't want them to have. McCarthyism was in full bloom, destroying the lives of people for no other reason than that senator had taken a dislike to them.

Police in many cities, when they had a slow night, would go find a gay bar to raid just for the fun of it.

Women were pretty much considered second-class citizens.

And all that's dying, now. I think it's great.

When I was young, violent crime was almost back to the levels we saw in the 1800s. Now, it's declined significantly. Assaults and homicides are way down. I think that's great. Property crime is down, too.

We see a lot less tolerance for people who want to beat up other people for being different. This, for some people, is evidence of a decline in morals.

Jesus would disagree.

With all due respect the homicide rate in the US is one of the highest in the world and not far off from the levels seen in WWII. Furthermore, our government is committing an all out onslaught to legalize gay unions, prostitution and child sacrifice around the world (before fetal viability is challenged in court). America is the prostitute, there can be no doubt.

 

[Buzzword]

What is great about America*:
1) Free exchange of ideas.
2) Free practice of religious beliefs that do not infringe upon the rights of others.
3) Most of my friends and relatives live here.
4) My wife and I happened to be born here around the same time, which drastically increased the odds of our eventual meeting and pairing.
5) A growing movement to stamp out prejudice and bigotry, which gains ground with each new generation.
6) Barbecue.
7) Jazz.
8) Barbershop music.

*Not all of the items on this list are exclusive to America.

What is NOT great about America, that I can think of off the top of my head**:
1) Greed is our primary cultural value.

2) The unfettered, irrational individualism which has stemmed from #1, resulting in a nation of individual citizens almost completely unable to connect with each other because we're all obsessed with "getting ahead," which naturally results in "getting ahead of the other person," which prevents any kind of empathy with anyone.

3) The almost nonexistent sense of community which has resulted from #2, as we have all been pitted against one another by marketing and propaganda from the 1% (who strangely enough are motivated only by #1) to prevent us from realizing that not only are we a community, we are a community of oppressed people.

4) The ignorance and hysteria fueled by the 1% maintaining #3, causing massive numbers of oppressed people to act only in the best interests of their oppressors, and which has led to all kinds of irrational hatred of art and knowledge and people who are different.

5) A fascination with excess, stemming from #2, which leads us to all kinds of delights in violence and gluttony and ignorance in an attempt to portray ourselves as greater than the next person. This includes everything from "professional eating" to Bible-thumping at the Creation Museum to cheering whenever we fling soldiers willy-nilly across the globe.

6) A near-total inability to prioritize in a mature manner, stemming from #3.
We focus more on what our neighbor is doing in his/her bedroom than on the fact that our children's school is falling apart.
We willingly donate money to buy the pastor of a megachurch a new yacht, but scream bloody murder at the idea of paying taxes for infrastructure maintenance or basic services, and when that infrastructure falls apart and/or those services become unavailable due to lack of funds, we scream bloody murder AGAIN because we treat them as our due.
We complain that our educational system is falling apart, but in the same breath demand that nonscience be taught in science classes, demand no regulation or standards for education (even though in the act of complaining we admit to some kind of standard), and complain that teachers are overpaid.


**These may not be limited to America, but other countries tend to not parade them around like they're something to be proud of.



Food for thought.

 

[noguru]

This is not the America in which I always took such pride and comfort.
We are fast approaching that definition which caused God to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah.
That which is good is curtailed or forbidden. That which is abnormal and against nature is celebrated.

Any amount of human civilization is against nature. Where does one draw the line as to what is good and bad regarding man's influence. A person whose whole argument is "Well it use to work." is not seeing reality clearly. The world changes and our perception of the world can get more comprehensive if we allow that to happen.

 

[THall]

America is not great.
American men and women can be great as individuals.

America is a lot like baseball.

It's greatness will be a sum of individual efforts/achievments

balanced against it's sum of errors on defense.

 

[noguru]

As a financial and military power yes, but nationalism is the only thing that really binds us together.

Nationalism like anything else is a passion. It can be good and it can be bad. When our passion for nationalism overshadows sound reason and logic it becomes a very destructive force. Many people would like to manipulate others with an irrational and emotionally charged argument. Because they were seduced by that same sort of argument.

 

[noguru]

America is still great, but it is in decline. We are still an economic, intellectual, and a military power. We are still a bastion of freedom. But we are losing our morality.

Morality that is forced is not morality, it is obedience. In the history of the world more damages and horrendous acts of mass violence have come from obedience than from disobedience.

 

[noguru]

You are 100% right with that list of symptoms, Matt. Our numbers are terrible, worse than reported. Lately, I have become of the camp which does not rule out that all this deterioration and depravity is the result of intentional subversion of the American character.
In so many ways, if you think about it, we have seen negative attitudes and behaviour springing up, but have we, as a nation, done anything to reverse or stop it? No, to the contrary, we seem to actually encourage it.
The optimism you see and are somewhat skeptical about may be coming from people who never changed, never lost their senses of right and wrong. These people feel maybe this is all a bad dream we will someday wake up from.

We do not think this is a bad dream from which we will one day awake. We know that it is the same as it ever was. But we continue to move ahead and do not let obstacles stand in our way.

I do not waste much time lamenting about how others do not get it. I say my piece, I stay true to the principles I value, and appreciate when I meet others who do understand. Although those who understand are few and far between.

 

[Buzzword]

Morality that is forced is not morality, it is obedience. In the history of the world more damages and horrendous acts of mass violence have come from obedience than from disobedience.

Truth.

It shocks me how selective some people are in their bemoaning of the "loss" or "decline" of morality in this country.

 

[noguru]

Truth.

It shocks me how selective some people are in their bemoaning of the "loss" or "decline" of morality in this country.

The only thing I can say about that is:

There but for the grace of God go I.

 

[Repentance96]

Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to God ] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of God , and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what God has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers.And We ordained for them therein a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth, and for wounds is legal retribution. But whoever gives [up his right as] charity, it is an expiation for him. And whoever does not judge by what God has revealed - then it is those who are the wrongdoers.And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous.And let the People of the Gospel judge by what God has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.And We have revealed to you the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what God has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had God willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To God is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.And judge, between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations and beware of them, lest they tempt you away from some of what God has revealed to you. And if they turn away - then know that God only intends to afflict them with some of their [own] sins. And indeed, many among the people are defiantly disobedient.Then is it the judgement of [the time of] ignorance they desire? But who is better than God in judgement for a people who are certain [in faith].

Quran 5:44-50

 

[Sancocho]

In the history of the world more damages and horrendous acts of mass violence have come from obedience than from disobedience.

Please provide any references to support this claim.

 

[Buzzword]

Please provide any references to support his claim.

Just off the top of my head:
The Crusades
Any and all religious wars
Race riots
Witchhunts
Auto-da-fe
"Honor killings"
Lynchings
Burning of black churches

 

[Sancocho]

Just off the top of my head:
The Crusades
Any and all religious wars
Race riots
Witchhunts
Auto-da-fe
"Honor killings"
Lynchings
Burning of black churches

Actually, governmental obedience to the Gospel has saved more lives than all of the above 1000 times over.

Honestly, the clear limiting of the Gospel by our early government but instead embracing half truths and nationalism has caused the fall of America. In fact one can say we were doomed from the beginning.

 

[THall]

Please provide any references to support this claim.

Obedience to the Third Reich.....and others like Mao....

 

[noguru]

Actually, governmental obedience to the Gospel has saved more lives than all of the above 1000 times over.

How do you define "obedience to the gospel"?

 

[Sancocho]

Obedience to the Third Reich.....and others like Mao....

Obedience to anything other than the Gospel is disastrous. The US and Europe are prime examples.

Of course this was not inevitable as clearly witnessed by other countries that have been obedient to the Gospel.

 

[noguru]

Obedience to anything other than the Gospel is disastrous. The US and Europe are prime examples.

Of course this was not inevitable as clearly witnessed by other countries that have been obedient to the Gospel.

In your opinion which countries have been obedient to the Gospel?

 

[Sancocho]

How do you define "obedience to the gospel"?

Outlawing child sacrifice and homosexual indoctrination and requiring Christian education in schools.

The results are a night and day difference. The US and Europe are among the most violent countries in the world and make the Middle East look good by comparison.

 

[noguru]

Outlawing child sacrifice and homosexual indoctrination and requiring Christian education in schools.

The results are a night and day difference. The US and Europe are among the most violent countries in the world and make the Middle East look good by comparison.

In your opinion which countries have been obedient to the Gospel?

 

[musterion]

No chance of seeing this on a kids' show today.

FuzzyMemories.TV - WGN Channel 9 - Bozo's Circus - "Frazier's Pledge" (1978)