In the twinkling of an eye

[Right Divider]

Can you prove that the Bible speaks about seven years of the tribulation without, "Assuming that things that are unrelated in scripture are talking about the same thing"?

Follow the yellow brick road.

 

[Rosenritter]

I'm not playing any games, but YES.... it sounds like we are on the same page regarding my point. It IS about movement. The Scriptures NEVER say ANY humans, except Jesus, are "Going to heaven (meaning to God's presence)".

Millions of people "go to heaven" each day...... if you mean where birds, and airplanes, and flaming chariots fly.
As you noticed, I was talking SPECIFICALLY about "going to heaven" and specifically about God's presence in heaven.... Other than Jesus.
You are absolutely correct, God is literally in the "heavens and earth which are now", the third heaven doesn't exist yet, It is created AFTER this heaven and earth are destroyed by fire;
2 Peter 3:5-13
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

2 Corinthians 12:1-4 KJV
(1) It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
(2) I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth: ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
(3) And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth: )
(4) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

The meaning of "the third heaven" in the Jewish understanding was the throne of God.

 

[Rosenritter]

The pre-trib catching away is Biblical.

Repeat that a few more times. I've heard if you repeat it loud enough and often enough people will believe it.

So what I would like to know (please tell me) is the "Pre-Trib Rapture theory" separable from MAD-style Dispensationalism? Does one have to hold one to logically maintain the other?

But would you be able to answer the question above though? It wasn't a trick or a trap.

 

[Rosenritter]

There is nothing wrong with your logic nor your conclusions as far as the passages you are quoting.
There is something missing though.

Paul's wrote to the Corinthians and Thessalonians before John wrote Revelations, so Paul could not be referring to the trumps seen by John.
That does not mean that the last trump seen by John is not the same last trump that Paul wrote about.
Paul was shown his own vision of the last trump, and what Paul wrote about the last trump matches up with what John wrote about the seventh trump of Revelations.

Paul was also given access to specific visions of the Lord (2 Cor 12 makes mention of this) and it is not unreasonable that he and John would have complementary visions of prophecy.

Since Paul was a scholar of the Old Testament, he probably related the last trump he was shown with this trump:

Zechariah 9:13-16
13 When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man.
14 And the Lord shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.
15 The Lord of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.
16 And the Lord their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.​

But there aren't multiple trumps in that passage to warrant any distinguishing between them as "last" and "not last?"​

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture theory came first.
Dispensationalism was then created to support the Pre-Tribulation Rapture theory.

The problem with the Pre-Tribulation Rapture theory is that it is based upon a false notion about the tribulation.
The "great tribulation" that Jesus spoke about was the second exile of the children of Israel from the land of promise.

There is also a time coming for God's wrath upon the nations, which Dispensationalists mistakenly think is the tribulation period.

Thank you for the history bit, that is helpful. Was hoping for their answer though...

 

[Rosenritter]

Can you prove that the Bible speaks about seven years of the tribulation without, "Assuming that things that are unrelated in scripture are talking about the same thing"?

Even if the MAD party doesn't want to go there that might be worth exploring. I'd need to do a little checkup first though.

 

[john w]

I understand your complete and utter confusion. To you, all tribulations are the same as the great tribulation that God identified as the "time of Jacob's trouble".

Genesis 32:7 KJV Then Jacob was greatly afraid and distressed: and he divided the people that was with him, and the flocks, and herds, and the camels, into two bands;



Jeremiah 30 KJV
5 For thus saith the Lord; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. 6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? 7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

 

[john w]

Job....The sanctification of a saint.....A picture of the Great Trib....42 chapters....3 1/2 years........

 

[genuineoriginal]

Paul was also given access to specific visions of the Lord (2 Cor 12 makes mention of this) and it is not unreasonable that he and John would have complementary visions of prophecy.

I believe that as well, which is why I mentioned, "Paul was shown his own vision of the last trump."

But there aren't multiple trumps in that passage to warrant any distinguishing between them as "last" and "not last?"

My understanding of why Paul mentions the "last trump" comes from the passage where Paul talked about Jesus Christ as the "last Adam".

1 Corinthians 15:45 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.​

It is my belief that Paul thought about a "first trump" and a "last trump" in a similar manner to his thought about a "first Adam" and a "last Adam".

Paul probably thought of the first trump as the trump sounded at mount Sinai (it is the first trump mentioned in the Bible).

Exodus 19:16-20 16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled. 17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount. 18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. 19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice. 20 And the Lord came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the Lord called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.​

The trump at mount Sinai in Exodus 19:16 would be the "first trump" of God and the trump in Zechariah 9:14 would the "last trump" of God.
In the first trump the Lord God came down and the people (children of Israel) were brought out to meet with Him.
In the last trump the Lord Jesus will come down and the people (believers in Christ) will be brought out to meet with Him.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Follow the yellow brick road.

"Click your heels together three times and say 'There's no place like home'."

 

[john w]

1 Thessalonians 4:16 KJV For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


The trumpets of Revelation involve angels blowing trumpets-not the trump of God.And the archangel is speaking, not blowing a trumpet.

1 Corinthians 15 KJV

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Verse 52: "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound,...


"last"=there are at least two sounds of the trumpet. Why? There are two groups of people being resurrected—1.deceased members of the boc, Christians first, and 2.living members of the boc afterward.


1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


That is, one trumpet sound is to resurrect deceased members of the boc, and another trumpet sound is to transform living members of the boc.

The seventh trumpet of Revelation, is but one of seven trumpets that introduces judgment against the world-not salvation/"deliverance"/preservation, as in "the plucking out" of members of the boc, from this "present evil world"(Galatians 1:4 KJV).

1 Thessalonians 5 KJV
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,


1 Thessalonians 1 KJV
10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Romans 5 KJV
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Galatians 1 KJV

4 who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:



And thus, "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."


Ephesians 5 KJV

30 for we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

The Lord Jesus Christ once suffered wrath, at Calvary; that will not happen again. Thus, He will not allow the members of the boc, "his body," to suffer that fate, wrath, either. He already did that, in our place.

And notice Galatians 1:4-it is being addressed to already forever justified saints, despite the cries from the wolves of "denying eternal security." So, the "deliverance" here is physical deliverance, out of "this present evil world-"the "plucking out," seizure by force," "rapture."

2 Corinthians 5 KJV
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Philippians 3 KJV
20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:


An ambassador represents his "Commander-In-Chief" in a foreign land, and speaks only the message his boss gives him, and,as such, he does not get involved in "local politics."

Paul's point: ambassadors are the first people "called" out of a foreign country, when war is declared-when the Exodus 15:3 KJV "man of war" returns, his ambassadors will be "plucked out," removed, out of "harms way."

 

[genuineoriginal]

Revelation 10:7 7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.​

Revelation 11:15 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.​

The word highlighted in the two verses has only one meaning.

g4537 σαλπίζω salpizō to sound a trumpet

​

 

[john w]

"Click your heels together three times and say 'There's no place like home'."

OK, all you tough....

...types. Weighty.

 

[Right Divider]

Repeat that a few more times. I've heard if you repeat it loud enough and often enough people will believe it.

So what I would like to know (please tell me) is the "Pre-Trib Rapture theory" separable from MAD-style Dispensationalism? Does one have to hold one to logically maintain the other?

But would you be able to answer the question above though? It wasn't a trick or a trap.

Since you cannot understand the difference between Paul's ministry and the rest, there is no sense discussing details with you.

Here's a hint: Scripture records ZERO instances of the Lord Jesus Christ using the word "grace" during His earthly ministry to Israel, whereas Paul uses the word NINETY ONE times in his thirteen epistles.

Bonus: Of the four "gospels", only Luke uses the term "Lord Jesus" ONE TIME.... Paul uses "Lord Jesus" EIGHTY FIVE times!

 

[Rosenritter]

I believe that as well, which is why I mentioned, "Paul was shown his own vision of the last trump."


My understanding of why Paul mentions the "last trump" comes from the passage where Paul talked about Jesus Christ as the "last Adam".

1 Corinthians 15:45 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.​

It is my belief that Paul thought about a "first trump" and a "last trump" in a similar manner to his thought about a "first Adam" and a "last Adam".

Paul probably thought of the first trump as the trump sounded at mount Sinai (it is the first trump mentioned in the Bible).

Exodus 19:16-20 16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled. 17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount. 18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. 19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice. 20 And the Lord came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the Lord called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.​

The trump at mount Sinai in Exodus 19:16 would be the "first trump" of God and the trump in Zechariah 9:14 would the "last trump" of God.
In the first trump the Lord God came down and the people (children of Israel) were brought out to meet with Him.
In the last trump the Lord Jesus will come down and the people (believers in Christ) will be brought out to meet with Him.

I think of the Bible as an overall effort of a single Author that knows to include legends for its own terms and symbols. So as He guided Paul he would also know to include the necessary reference to specific trumpets before or after in the canon. We are given the enumerated trumps in reference to Christ's return in Revelation, and since Paul speaks of Christ's return and the last trump it isn't a difficult fit.

But even if Exodus 19:16 was the "first trump" of God (which is a pretty loose definition of a trumpet) it certainly doesn't mean that the the last trump should come before other trumps (or else the designation of "last" becomes meaningless.)

 

[Rosenritter]

Since you cannot understand the difference between Paul's ministry and the rest, there is no sense discussing details with you.

Here's a hint: Scripture records ZERO instances of the Lord Jesus Christ using the word "grace" during His earthly ministry to Israel, whereas Paul uses the word NINETY ONE times in his thirteen epistles.

Bonus: Of the four "gospels", only Luke uses the term "Lord Jesus" ONE TIME.... Paul uses "Lord Jesus" EIGHTY FIVE times!

Are you seriously unable to answer a simple question of whether "Pre-trib Rapture" theory can stand alone (apart from) from "Dispensationalism" or whether one can hold to "Dispensationalism" without "Pre-trib Rapture" theory? Or are you being rude on purpose?

 

[Clete]

Are you seriously unable to answer a simple question of whether "Pre-trib Rapture" theory can stand alone (apart from) from "Dispensationalism" or whether one can hold to "Dispensationalism" without "Pre-trib Rapture" theory? Or are you being rude on purpose?

You seem incapable of grasping the concept of paradigms.

You might as well be asking whether the pre-trip rapture doctrine can stand alone, apart from the bible.

Can circles stand alone, apart from curves?

Can money stand alone, apart from economics?

Can electronics stand alone, apart from electricity?

Can the truth stand alone, apart from reality?

It's a stupid question! Or else it's a question designed to separate a debate opponent from his own premise and cause him tacitly to adopt yours.


(He will think I've answered his question with a "Yes".)

 

[Right Divider]

Are you seriously unable to answer a simple question of whether "Pre-trib Rapture" theory can stand alone (apart from) from "Dispensationalism" or whether one can hold to "Dispensationalism" without "Pre-trib Rapture" theory? Or are you being rude on purpose?

Rude? LOL

The over-sensitive one has spoken again! K:

The catching away that Paul speaks about is clear. I don't know why it gives you such heartburn. There are several other catching away's in the Bible.... can you find them?

 

[Right Divider]

You seem incapable of grasping the concept of paradigms.

You might as well be asking whether the pre-trip rapture doctrine can stand alone, apart from the bible.

Can circles stand alone, apart from curves?

Can money stand alone, apart from economics?

Can electronics stand alone, apart from electricity?

Can the truth stand alone, apart from reality?

It's a stupid question! Or else it's a question designed to separate a debate opponent from his own premise and cause him tacitly to adopt yours.

Which is exactly why I didn't answer it.

 

[Right Divider]

Can you prove that the Bible speaks about seven years of the tribulation without, "Assuming that things that are unrelated in scripture are talking about the same thing"?

And just why would I want to answer a guy that uses the Bible as a word search puzzle and thinks that words have the IDENTICAL meaning everywhere they're found?

 

[Clete]

Which is exactly why I didn't answer it.

Yes, I could tell what you were doing. I just thought, considering who you're talking with, it could stand to be stated outright.