In the twinkling of an eye

[Dartman]

That, AND that just because the trump is the last doesn't mean it means it was the last in a series of other trumps. It could be the last thing to happen in a series of other things.

For example...

List 1: A bear, a table, a tree, and a trumpet.
List 2: Trumpet 1, Trumpet 2, .... Trumpet 6, Trumpet 7, the Final Trumpet.

:idunno:

The trumpet is the last in that first list, but it's not the last trumpet ever.

I have never found any trumpets/trumps, other than the 7 trumpets listed in Revelation, in the New Testament that are associated with Christ's return.
It seems to me you are trying to create some kind of support for denying that the last trump, and the 7th trump are the same.

If so, why??

 

[JudgeRightly]

I have never found any trumpets/trumps, other than the 7 trumpets listed in Revelation, in the New Testament that are associated with Christ's return.

That's because...

There is no clear prerequisite for His return.

Only:

Romans 11:25 "The fullness of the gentiles"

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 "A shout, the voice of an archangel, and the trumpet of God"

And one more thing:

2 Peter 3:12 That we can "hasten the coming of the day of the LORD"

It seems to me you are trying to create some kind of support for denying that the last trump, and the 7th trump are the same.

If so, why??

Because as I showed above, there's more trumps than just the ones in Revelation.

Assuming that things that are unrelated in scripture are talking about the same thing is called reading your beliefs into scripture, instead of basing your beliefs on what scripture says within context.

You said you couldn't find any others.

I just showed you one.

 

[Dartman]

That's because...

There is no clear prerequisite for His return.

Only:

Romans 11:25 "The fullness of the gentiles"

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 "A shout, the voice of an archangel, and the trumpet of God"

And one more thing:

2 Peter 3:12 That we can "hasten the coming of the day of the LORD"

No.... there WERE many prerequisites for Christ's return, but most of them have been fulfilled in the intervening 19 centuries.

Because as I showed above, there's more trumps than just the ones in Revelation.

The only text you showed above that discusses a trumpet is, 1 Thess 4, and we KNOW this is the exact same trump as 1 Cor 15, because they happen SIMULTANEOUSLY with the 1st Resurrection, and is the "last trump". We KNOW that is the 7th trumpet in Revelation because it is ALSO simultaneous with Christ's return, and Christ's hostile takeover of the governments on this planet.

 

[Rosenritter]

Again, you need to read more carefully;

Rev 20:11-15
1 Then I saw a great white throne and him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

This is Jesus' throne, NOT God's throne.
Rev 3:21 'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with me on my throne, as I also overcame and sat down with my Father on His throne.

Jesus is currently sitting at his God's right hand, on his God's throne.
Jesus WILL .... future tense .... have his OWN throne "my throne", and will share his throne with the overcomers.

Sorry if I didn't read you there, but most Unitarians I have talked with before recognize the Great White Throne as the throne of God, so I don't usually have to come back from this angle (they deny the other half instead.)

But why would heaven and earth flee away from ... a "not-God" creature?

Revelation 21:3 KJV
(3) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Regardless, that above should short the entire discussion. Surely you're not going to say THAT isn't the presence of God?

 

[Rosenritter]

So, are you saying there are more that 7 trumps?
If so, why?

I think there's the "last trump" which is the first "most recent" trump, then there's the first trump, the second trump, and so on until the seventh trump.

:doh:

 

[Rosenritter]

That, AND that just because the trump is the last doesn't mean it means it was the last in a series of other trumps. It could be the last thing to happen in a series of other things.

For example...

List 1: A bear, a table, a tree, and a trumpet.
List 2: Trumpet 1, Trumpet 2, .... Trumpet 6, Trumpet 7, the Final Trumpet.

:idunno:


The trumpet is the last in that first list, but it's not the last trumpet ever.

Matthew 19:30 KJV
(30) But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

I see it now! The last trump shall be first! Straight from the scripture!

 

[Dartman]

Sorry if I didn't read you there, but most Unitarians I have talked with before recognize the Great White Throne as the throne of God, so I don't usually have to come back from this angle (they deny the other half instead.)

But why would heaven and earth flee away from ... a "not-God" creature?

Because God has given him "all power".

And Jesus' 2nd coming won't be as a peaceful, meek messenger.

Jesus will return as a King ordained by his God, with his God's awesome power, and authority;

Rev 19:15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it he may strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron; and he treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.

Revelation 21:3 KJV
(3) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Regardless, that above should short the entire discussion. Surely you're not going to say THAT isn't the presence of God?

EXCELLENT TEXT!! But, remember my original statement? Just in case not, here it is again;

"Notice I did NOT say: "God has never left heaven, and was present with anyone" ...... I said;
"There is no Scripture that states ANY human being, except Jesus, has ever gone to God's presence, or will ever."
God is most certainly going to leave heaven, and dwell on the earth with His immortal sons, and daughters, after all the wicked are destroyed in the Lake of Fire.

Thank you for quoting my proof text~!

 

[Rosenritter]

Because God has given him "all power".

And Jesus' 2nd coming won't be as a peaceful, meek messenger.

Jesus will return as a King ordained by his God, with his God's awesome power, and authority;

Rev 19:15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it he may strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron; and he treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.

EXCELLENT TEXT!! But, remember my original statement? Just in case not, here it is again;

"Notice I did NOT say: "God has never left heaven, and was present with anyone" ...... I said;
"There is no Scripture that states ANY human being, except Jesus, has ever gone to God's presence, or will ever."
God is most certainly going to leave heaven, and dwell on the earth with His immortal sons, and daughters, after all the wicked are destroyed in the Lake of Fire.

Thank you for quoting my proof text~!

It seems to me that you are playing a game with who is considered to be moving. Movement is a relative thing, but it comes to the same result, humans have come into the presence of God and will come into the presence of God, but God's presence isn't limited to an untouchable "third heaven."

 

[Dartman]

It seems to me that you are playing a game with who is considered to be moving.

I'm not playing any games, but YES.... it sounds like we are on the same page regarding my point. It IS about movement. The Scriptures NEVER say ANY humans, except Jesus, are "Going to heaven (meaning to God's presence)".

Millions of people "go to heaven" each day...... if you mean where birds, and airplanes, and flaming chariots fly.

".Movement is a relative thing, but it comes to the same result, humans have come into the presence of God ....

As you noticed, I was talking SPECIFICALLY about "going to heaven" and specifically about God's presence in heaven.... Other than Jesus.

.... but God's presence isn't limited to an untouchable "third heaven."

You are absolutely correct, God is literally in the "heavens and earth which are now", the third heaven doesn't exist yet, It is created AFTER this heaven and earth are destroyed by fire;
2 Peter 3:5-13
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[Right Divider]

I don't believe I specified a certain ordinal of trumpet, but if there is a seventh trumpet, then the trumpets before cannot be described as "last" if the word is to have any meaning. For communication clarity, here's relevant passages (and please tell me if I missed any):

Matthew 24:30-31 KJV
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Corinthians 15:52 KJV
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-16 KJV
(15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The Lord descends from AND
The dead in Christ rise, AND
the Son of Man appears and gathers his elect,

... all with the sound of a trumpet, also called "the last trump" by Paul in 1 Thessalonians.

Revelation 9:13-14 KJV
(13) And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
(14) Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

Revelation 11:15 KJV
(15) And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The passages above are to establish that "the seventh angel sounded" is equivalent to the seventh trumpet of the seventh angel, and I am assuming that is the trumpet you are referencing. Now here is the strange part, when a doctrine requires such acrobatics as that "the last trump" is not the last trump at all, but the beginning of trumps. How can "the last trump" occur before the first trump? Very strange indeed...

So whether there be trumpets after the seventh trump I cannot specifically say, but if there are they aren't mentioned. What we are specifically told us that the saints are caught up (AKA "raptured") at the last trump of God, and that we on the ground do not go before those that are raised. The dead rise first, then we are changed.

So what I would like to know (please tell me) is the "Pre-Trib Rapture theory" separable from MAD-style Dispensationalism? Does one have to hold one to logically maintain the other?

The pre-trib catching away is Biblical.

 

[genuineoriginal]

I don't believe I specified a certain ordinal of trumpet, but if there is a seventh trumpet, then the trumpets before cannot be described as "last" if the word is to have any meaning. For communication clarity, here's relevant passages (and please tell me if I missed any):

Matthew 24:30-31 KJV
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Corinthians 15:52 KJV
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-16 KJV
(15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The Lord descends from AND
The dead in Christ rise, AND
the Son of Man appears and gathers his elect,

... all with the sound of a trumpet, also called "the last trump" by Paul in 1 Thessalonians.

Revelation 9:13-14 KJV
(13) And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
(14) Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

Revelation 11:15 KJV
(15) And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The passages above are to establish that "the seventh angel sounded" is equivalent to the seventh trumpet of the seventh angel, and I am assuming that is the trumpet you are referencing. Now here is the strange part, when a doctrine requires such acrobatics as that "the last trump" is not the last trump at all, but the beginning of trumps. How can "the last trump" occur before the first trump? Very strange indeed...

So whether there be trumpets after the seventh trump I cannot specifically say, but if there are they aren't mentioned. What we are specifically told us that the saints are caught up (AKA "raptured") at the last trump of God, and that we on the ground do not go before those that are raised. The dead rise first, then we are changed.

There is nothing wrong with your logic nor your conclusions as far as the passages you are quoting.
There is something missing though.

Paul's wrote to the Corinthians and Thessalonians before John wrote Revelations, so Paul could not be referring to the trumps seen by John.
That does not mean that the last trump seen by John is not the same last trump that Paul wrote about.
Paul was shown his own vision of the last trump, and what Paul wrote about the last trump matches up with what John wrote about the seventh trump of Revelations.

Since Paul was a scholar of the Old Testament, he probably related the last trump he was shown with this trump:

Zechariah 9:13-16 13 When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man. 14 And the Lord shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south. 15 The Lord of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar. 16 And the Lord their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.​

So what I would like to know (please tell me) is the "Pre-Trib Rapture theory" separable from MAD-style Dispensationalism? Does one have to hold one to logically maintain the other?

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture theory came first.
Dispensationalism was then created to support the Pre-Tribulation Rapture theory.

The problem with the Pre-Tribulation Rapture theory is that it is based upon a false notion about the tribulation.
The "great tribulation" that Jesus spoke about was the second exile of the children of Israel from the land of promise.

There is also a time coming for God's wrath upon the nations, which Dispensationalists mistakenly think is the tribulation period.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Assuming that things that are unrelated in scripture are talking about the same thing is called reading your beliefs into scripture, instead of basing your beliefs on what scripture says within context.

Yes, this is the mistake that Dispensationalists always make.

 

[genuineoriginal]

The pre-trib catching away is Biblical.

No, it is not.

2 Thessalonians 1:4-5 4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: 5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:​

 

[Right Divider]

No, it is not.

2 Thessalonians 1:4-5 4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: 5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:​

I understand your complete and utter confusion. To you, all tribulations are the same as the great tribulation that God identified as the "time of Jacob's trouble".

 

[genuineoriginal]

I understand your complete and utter confusion.

The problem is that you refuse to understand your own complete and utter confusion.

To you, all tribulations are the same as the great tribulation that God identified as the "time of Jacob's trouble".

Dispensationalists refuse to understand what Jesus was talking about in the Olivet Discourse.

 

[Dartman]

The pre-trib catching away is Biblical.

I have never found any justification for it in Scripture.
If you HAVE some Scripture that explains it, I will be happy to look at it!

Since Dan 9 comes up frequently in these discussions, I will preemptively strike that error.

The 70 weeks of Daniel are consecutive, and are fulfilled already, they were finished 3 1/2 years after Jesus died. The abomination of desolation in 70AD was a RESULT OF the 70 weeks.

Sorry if you think that is off topic, but in all the "pre-trib" discussions I have had, that passage figures prominently.

 

[Right Divider]

The problem is that you refuse to understand your own complete and utter confusion.

Wrong.

Dispensationalists refuse to understand what Jesus was talking about in the Olivet Discourse.

Then why did you quote Paul where he was NOT talking about Jesus' "Olivet Discourse"?

You're very confused.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Wrong.

Dispensationalists are always wrong when it comes to "the Rapture".

why did you quote Paul where he was NOT talking about Jesus' "Olivet Discourse"?

I understand that your confusion is based on the fictional seven-year tribulation you were taught to believe in by Dispensationalists.

Dispensationalists always teach that there is a seven year "tribulation" that happens right before Jesus returns when they are talking about End Time Prophecy.

What is the rapture? There are many Christians who believe that the second coming of Jesus Christ will be in two phases. First, He will come for believers, both living and dead, in the “rapture” (read 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17). In this view, the rapture—which is the transformation and catching up of all Christians, dead or alive, to meet Christ in the air—will be secret, for it will be unknown to the world of unbelievers at the time of its happening. The effect of this removal, in the absence of multitudes of people, will, of course, be evident on earth. Then, second, after a period of seven years of tribulation on earth, Christ will return to the earth with His church, the saints who were raptured (Matthew 24:30, 2 Thessalonians 1:7, 1 Peter 1:13, Revelation 1:7). ... Many other evangelical Christians believe that Christ’s return and the rapture will not occur until the seven years of the tribulation have ended. As far as the latter view is concerned, the rapture will not be secret, since it will be part of Christ’s visible and triumphant return to end this present evil age (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17).

​

Please notice that Dispensationalists cannot stop believing in this fictional seven years of the tribulation, no matter whether they believe in a Pre-Tribulation "Rapture" or a Post-Tribulation "Rapture".

The problem is that seven years of the tribulation is not found anywhere in the Bible.

 

[Right Divider]

Dispensationalists are always wrong when it comes to "the Rapture".

I understand that your confusion is based on the fictional seven-year tribulation you were taught to believe in by Dispensationalists.

Dispensationalists always teach that there is a seven year "tribulation" that happens right before Jesus returns when they are talking about End Time Prophecy.

What is the rapture? There are many Christians who believe that the second coming of Jesus Christ will be in two phases. First, He will come for believers, both living and dead, in the “rapture” (read 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17). In this view, the rapture—which is the transformation and catching up of all Christians, dead or alive, to meet Christ in the air—will be secret, for it will be unknown to the world of unbelievers at the time of its happening. The effect of this removal, in the absence of multitudes of people, will, of course, be evident on earth. Then, second, after a period of seven years of tribulation on earth, Christ will return to the earth with His church, the saints who were raptured (Matthew 24:30, 2 Thessalonians 1:7, 1 Peter 1:13, Revelation 1:7). ... Many other evangelical Christians believe that Christ’s return and the rapture will not occur until the seven years of the tribulation have ended. As far as the latter view is concerned, the rapture will not be secret, since it will be part of Christ’s visible and triumphant return to end this present evil age (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17).

​

Please notice that Dispensationalists cannot stop believing in this fictional seven years of the tribulation, no matter whether they believe in a Pre-Tribulation "Rapture" or a Post-Tribulation "Rapture".

The problem is that seven years of the tribulation is not found anywhere in the Bible.

Blah, blah blah...

 

[genuineoriginal]

seven years of the tribulation is not found anywhere in the Bible.

Blah, blah blah...

Can you prove that the Bible speaks about seven years of the tribulation without, "Assuming that things that are unrelated in scripture are talking about the same thing"?