In the twinkling of an eye

JudgeRightly

JudgeRightly

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DansingWall said:
So if the bride is Israel, wheres that leave the gentiles?

MATTHEW [24] But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Ya see what Jesus said

JOHN 10 [14] I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. [15] As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. [16] And OTHER SHEEP I HAVE, WHICH ARE NOT OF THIS FOLD: THEM ALSO I MUST BRING, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and ONE SHEPHERD.

I MUST BRING! Jesus said there were “others” not of the fold of the house of Israel. These “others” are the gentiles that hear His voice. Them also He will bring.... Bring where? Bring to heaven as the raptuist claim? Nope. At the time when Jesus does bring us we will have but ONE SHEPHERD.

EZEKIEL 37 [21] And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will GATHER THEM on every side, and BRING THEM INTO THEIR OWN LAND: [22]And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: [23] Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. [24] And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have ONE SHEPHERD: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. [25] And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. [26] Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. [27] My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.

Jesus gathers His people {in the twinkling of an eye} and BRINGS them to Israel, to the kingdom. We will have but ONE SHEPHERD

ZECHARIAH 8 [7] Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country; [8] And I will BRING THEM, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE, AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD {Zeke37v27}, in truth and in righteousness

The kingdom rest will be in the midst of Jerusalem

ISAIAH 56 [6] Also THE SONS OF THE STRANGER, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one THAT KEEPETH THE SABBATH from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; [7] EVEN THEM WILL I BRING TO MY HOLY MOUNTAIN, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. [8] The Lord God which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, YET WILL I GATHER OTHERS TO HIM, beside those that are gathered unto him.

Jesus brings them to His Holy Mountain. The kingdom rest. Yes, the “others” {John 10v16} {Isaiah 56v8} are the gentiles. So when the LAST TRUMPET {1Cor.15} sounds we meet the Lord in the air and Jesus “brings” us to His holy mountain in Jerusalem for the kingdom rest. Not off to heaven as the Rapturist claim.
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JudgeRightly said:
Throughout your post, you mix things that apply to Israel alone to things that apply to the Body of Christ alone. Why? Because your paradigm of beliefs says you must.



And?

Try reading the Bible in context and in order.



Again, taking things out of context only brings confusion.



Agreed.

But they're not the Body of Christ, which didn't exist yet.



You need to stop making straw man arguments.

None of the verses you have brought forth for your position have anything to do with the rapture, because the rapture only applies to a group that, in the context of all the verses you've brought forth, still does not exist (though it exists today, of course).



Nope. The people in the Body of Christ are not sheep.

We are members of a body, Christ's.



That ENTIRE PASSAGE is speaking about ISRAEL.

See the highlighted portions.



Nope. You're forcing together concepts that have nothing to do with one another.

How?

By taking things out of their rightful context.

Ezekiel is talking about Israel and Judah, the two nations in the above passage.

God planned to make them again into ONE NATION, and to bring them back into the land that He had promised them.

The Body of Christ (aka Christians) are still a mystery at this point in the Bible. Or, in other words, not mentioned at all, no one knew that the gentiles would be part of God's plans.



The kingdom is the entire nation of Israel, no longer divided into Israel and Judah.



See above.



Once again, taking things out of context to form a straw man against what the Bible says.

I'm not a rapturist, whatever that is....

I am a Christian, who says that the rapture of the Body of Christ (in which there is neither Jew nor Gentile (whereas in the "NATION OF ISRAEL" there are ONLY Jews and proselytes (Gentiles who have become Jews))) will occur before the Great Tribulation (Hint: also called the "Time of Jacob's Trouble" (Jeremiah 30:7; Jacobs other name is "Israel")), so that the Body of Christ will be spared, but that the Bride of Christ will pass through judgment, a trial by fire.

That's what the Bible says. That's what I believe.
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DansingWall said:
John 10:24-27 (KJV)
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Hmmm
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JudgeRightly said:
And?

The Body of Christ did not yet exist, so therefore this passage cannot apply to the Body of Christ.
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Dansing, I'm still waiting for a response...
 
C

clefty

New member
JudgeRightly said:
Dansing, I'm still waiting for a response...
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...maybe too busy reading about Peter preaching up the truth on how the Holy Spirit was given by Yah to those (not just jews) who obey Him...Acts 5:32...

While Peter was preaching “WHOEVER believes in Him will receive remission of sins” those of the circumcision were shocked when the Holy Spirit was gifted to the unclean goyim too...Acts 10:43-45

Or how about Peter preaching that it remains as it was when the church in the wilderness was full of goyim and yet still all in ONE LAW...one fellowship...and His house a house of prayer for ALL nations...not just jews

At Acts 15:8,9 Peter is quite clear Yah knows the circumcised heart and gave the goyim the Holy Spirit just as He did to believing jews...verse 9 “and made NO DISTINCTION between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.”

and yet even after He instructed “Think NOT...” you do and not only that but rebuild the very wall He tore down making peace from both becoming one...you know IN HIM neither jew or gentile NO DISTINCTION...wow...no distinction between two former opposites...you think Sunday vs Sabbath is not a distinction?...you really think Sabbath vs. none of that applies to me, I am BOC...is NOT a distinction?

but not only do you replace the wall He tore down you BUILD A THIRD TEMPLE WITH IT...just to have 2/3 of jews killed...that is way more anti Semitic than calling Yahushua Jesus...and destroying His diet and calendar...how racist can this get?
 
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Dartman

Active member
DansingWall said:
I wanted to start a thread to ask a few simple questions about the rapture theory. What ive found in scripture is no wheres near what i hear from the Rapturist. Ive found that when we are changed in the twinkling of an eye, we are not going to heaven but are going to the kingdom, the thousand year period of rest, right here on this earth. The changing {rapture} takes place on the Day of the Lord, after the tribulation period.

1 THESSALONIANS 5 [9] For God hath NOT APPOINTED US TO WRATH, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, [10] Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

The Rapturist claim we are raptured off to heaven because we are not appointed to wrath.

1 THESSALONIANS 4 [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and SO SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD.

We will be with Jesus from here on in

REVELATION 19 [14] And THE ARMIES WHICH WERE IN HEAVEN FOLLOWED HIM UPON WHITE HORSES, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. [15] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth THE WINEPRESS OF THE FIERCENESS AND WRATH OF ALMIGHTY GOD. [16] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Here we find Jesus returning to earth. We are with Him and He will be executing Gods wrath upon this earth. Again i say, the Rapturist claim we will be raptured to heaven to avoid the wrath of God. And yet, according to scripture we are here on earth during the wrath.
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Exactly! There is no Scripture that states ANY human being, except Jesus, has ever gone to God's presence, or will ever.
 
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comingfrom

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Dartman said:
Exactly! There is no Scripture that states ANY human being, except Jesus, has ever gone to God's presence, or will ever.
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And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day:
and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God
amongst the trees of the garden.
Genesis 3:8

And He said,
My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest.
Exodus 33:14

And thou shalt rejoice before the LORD thy God,
thou, and thy son, and thy daughter,
and thy manservant, and thy maidservant,
and the Levite that is within thy gates,
and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that are among you,
in the place which the LORD thy God hath chosen to place His name there.
Deuteronomy 16:11
 
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Dartman

Active member
comingfrom said:
And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day:
and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God
amongst the trees of the garden.
Genesis 3:8

And He said,
My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest.
Exodus 33:14

And thou shalt rejoice before the LORD thy God,
thou, and thy son, and thy daughter,
and thy manservant, and thy maidservant,
and the Levite that is within thy gates,
and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that are among you,
in the place which the LORD thy God hath chosen to place His name there.
Deuteronomy 16:11
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re-read my statement slowly.
Notice I did NOT say: "God has never left heaven, and was present with anyone" ...... I said;
"There is no Scripture that states ANY human being, except Jesus, has ever gone to God's presence, or will ever."
God is most certainly going to leave heaven, and dwell on the earth with His immortal sons, and daughters, after all the wicked are destroyed in the Lake of Fire.

And you didn't mention one of the most dramatic records we have, of God not only being PRESENT with Israel, but actually allowing Moses to see Jehovah/YHVH God's back, but preventing Moses from seeing His face .... ( which Jehovah defines as "see Me").
 
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Dartman

Active member
meshak said:
I disagree.

Why does He have to leave the heaven?
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I don't think "have to" is accurate. "Want's to" is expressed from Genesis to Revelation.
First, God's motive is simply explained here;

Rev 4:10-11 The four and twenty elders fall down before Him that sat on the throne, and worship Him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for Thou hast created all things, and for Thy pleasure they are and were created.

God has repeatedly said, He will take pleasure in dwelling on the earth, His creation;

Ps 132:13-14 For Jehovah hath chosen Zion; He hath desired it for his habitation. 14 This is My resting-place for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.

God has repeatedly promised the righteous that He would come and dwell with them, as is expressed in several Scriptures:

Job 19:23-27 "Oh that my words were written! Oh that they were inscribed in a book!
24 "That with an iron stylus and lead They were engraved in the rock forever!
25 "As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, And at the last He will take His stand on the earth.
26 "Even after my skin is destroyed, Yet from my flesh I shall see God;
27 Whom I myself shall behold, And whom my eyes will see and not another. My heart faints within me!


and with His beloved son, Jesus the Christ;
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.




1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.


John 14:23
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.


Rev 21:1-7 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.


Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.


These passages are just a tiny sample of the texts that discuss God's plan to dwell on the earth, with His sons and daughters.
 
Rosenritter

Rosenritter

New member
Dartman said:
Exactly! There is no Scripture that states ANY human being, except Jesus, has ever gone to God's presence, or will ever.
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But it actually does, it that many words.

Genesis 3:8 KJV
(8) And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

Genesis 4:15-16 KJV
(15) And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
(16) And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

1 Thessalonians 2:19 KJV
(19) For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?
 
Rosenritter

Rosenritter

New member
Dartman said:
re-read my statement slowly.
Notice I did NOT say: "God has never left heaven, and was present with anyone" ...... I said;
"There is no Scripture that states ANY human being, except Jesus, has ever gone to God's presence, or will ever."
God is most certainly going to leave heaven, and dwell on the earth with His immortal sons, and daughters, after all the wicked are destroyed in the Lake of Fire.

And you didn't mention one of the most dramatic records we have, of God not only being PRESENT with Israel, but actually allowing Moses to see Jehovah/YHVH God's back, but preventing Moses from seeing His face .... ( which Jehovah defines as "see Me").
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How are they judged before God's throne without coming into his presence?

Revelation 20:11-12 KJV
(11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
(12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
 
Rosenritter

Rosenritter

New member
Right Divider said:
I don't know that much about Ruckman nor his doctrines.
I do know that you are confused about a lot of things, including Mid-Act dispensational doctrines (which is really just a plain reading of the Bible).
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A plain reading does not put the last trump of the end of the world before the first trump of the end of the world, and a plain reading tells us that no man is justified by works of the law, that salvation has always been of faith. I couldn't care less how many artificial divisions of history are created for reference purposes, it's where faith and salvation hit brass tacks that MAD screams "dangerous heresy."
 
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Dartman

Active member
Rosenritter said:
But it actually does, it that many words.

Genesis 3:8 KJV
(8) And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

Genesis 4:15-16 KJV
(15) And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
(16) And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

1 Thessalonians 2:19 KJV
(19) For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?
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re-read my statement slowly.
Notice I did NOT say: "God has never left heaven, and was present with anyone" ...... I said;
"There is no Scripture that states ANY human being, except Jesus, has ever gone to God's presence, or will ever."
God is most certainly going to leave heaven, and dwell on the earth with His immortal sons, and daughters, after all the wicked are destroyed in the Lake of Fire.

And you didn't mention one of the most dramatic records we have, of God not only being PRESENT with Israel, but actually allowing Moses to see Jehovah/YHVH God's back, but preventing Moses from seeing His face .... ( which Jehovah defines as "see Me").
 
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Dartman

Active member
Rosenritter said:
A plain reading does not put the last trump of the end of the world before the first trump of the end of the world
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Hogwash.
1) The words "first", and "last", have meaning.
2) They are listed sequentially.
3) The ONLY trump where the sequence is mentioned, coincides with the rest of Scripture regarding the 7th, Last, Trump of God.
 
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