In the twinkling of an eye

Dartman

Active member
How are they judged before God's throne without coming into his presence?
Jesus and Paul both give us detailed answers,

John 5:19-30 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.





Acts 17:24-31 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though He needed any thing, seeing He giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after Him, and find Him, though He be not far from every one of us:
28 For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also His offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised him from the dead.


Jehovah/YHVH God, the Creator, has APPOINTED Jesus to judge for Him.

Rev 20:11-15
1 Then I saw a great white throne and him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
 

Right Divider

Body part
A plain reading does not put the last trump of the end of the world before the first trump of the end of the world, and a plain reading tells us that no man is justified by works of the law, that salvation has always been of faith. I couldn't care less how many artificial divisions of history are created for reference purposes, it's where faith and salvation hit brass tacks that MAD screams "dangerous heresy."
Why do you associate the "last trump" of Paul's mystery with the "seventh trumpet"?
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
A plain reading does not put the last trump of the end of the world before the first trump of the end of the world, and a plain reading tells us that no man is justified by works of the law, that salvation has always been of faith. I couldn't care less how many artificial divisions of history are created for reference purposes, it's where faith and salvation hit brass tacks that MAD screams "dangerous heresy."

:doh:
 

Rosenritter

New member
re-read my statement slowly.
Notice I did NOT say: "God has never left heaven, and was present with anyone" ...... I said;
"There is no Scripture that states ANY human being, except Jesus, has ever gone to God's presence, or will ever."
God is most certainly going to leave heaven, and dwell on the earth with His immortal sons, and daughters, after all the wicked are destroyed in the Lake of Fire.

And you didn't mention one of the most dramatic records we have, of God not only being PRESENT with Israel, but actually allowing Moses to see Jehovah/YHVH God's back, but preventing Moses from seeing His face .... ( which Jehovah defines as "see Me").

You're not reading your own statement carefully. If you meant to say "ascended to heaven in the presence of God" you should have said that instead of what you said.

1. Adam was a human being and did go into God's presence in the Garden.
2. Cain was a human being and did go into God's presence on the earth.
3. The saints in Christ are human beings and will rise up to meet Jesus in the air and thus also be in His presence.

If you want to speak of Moses, he also ascended up the mountain to be in God's presence.

You should re-read your own statement...
 

Rosenritter

New member
Hogwash.
1) The words "first", and "last", have meaning.
2) They are listed sequentially.
3) The ONLY trump where the sequence is mentioned, coincides with the rest of Scripture regarding the 7th, Last, Trump of God.

You need to tell that to those other people ... over there. The ones saying that "last doesn't mean last."
 

Rosenritter

New member
Jesus and Paul both give us detailed answers,

John 5:19-30 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.





Acts 17:24-31 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though He needed any thing, seeing He giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after Him, and find Him, though He be not far from every one of us:
28 For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also His offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised him from the dead.


Jehovah/YHVH God, the Creator, has APPOINTED Jesus to judge for Him.

Rev 20:11-15
1 Then I saw a great white throne and him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

You're not answering the question. Even allowing for your Unitarianism that denies Jesus as God, it still says that they come before the throne of God in Revelation. That's in his presence.
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
You need to tell that to those other people ... over there. The ones saying that "last doesn't mean last."

last:
19893579-old-shoemakers-last-isolated-on-white.jpg
 

Rosenritter

New member
Why do you associate the "last trump" of Paul's mystery with the "seventh trumpet"?

I don't believe I specified a certain ordinal of trumpet, but if there is a seventh trumpet, then the trumpets before cannot be described as "last" if the word is to have any meaning. For communication clarity, here's relevant passages (and please tell me if I missed any):

Matthew 24:30-31 KJV
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Corinthians 15:52 KJV
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-16 KJV
(15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The Lord descends from AND
The dead in Christ rise, AND
the Son of Man appears and gathers his elect,

... all with the sound of a trumpet, also called "the last trump" by Paul in 1 Thessalonians.

Revelation 9:13-14 KJV
(13) And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
(14) Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

Revelation 11:15 KJV
(15) And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The passages above are to establish that "the seventh angel sounded" is equivalent to the seventh trumpet of the seventh angel, and I am assuming that is the trumpet you are referencing. Now here is the strange part, when a doctrine requires such acrobatics as that "the last trump" is not the last trump at all, but the beginning of trumps. How can "the last trump" occur before the first trump? Very strange indeed...

So whether there be trumpets after the seventh trump I cannot specifically say, but if there are they aren't mentioned. What we are specifically told us that the saints are caught up (AKA "raptured") at the last trump of God, and that we on the ground do not go before those that are raised. The dead rise first, then we are changed.

So what I would like to know (please tell me) is the "Pre-Trib Rapture theory" separable from MAD-style Dispensationalism? Does one have to hold one to logically maintain the other?
 

Dartman

Active member
You're not answering the question. Even allowing for your Unitarianism that denies Jesus as God, it still says that they come before the throne of God in Revelation. That's in his presence.
Again, you need to read more carefully;

Rev 20:11-15
1 Then I saw a great white throne and him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

This is Jesus' throne, NOT God's throne.
Rev 3:21 'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with me on my throne, as I also overcame and sat down with my Father on His throne.

Jesus is currently sitting at his God's right hand, on his God's throne.
Jesus WILL .... future tense .... have his OWN throne "my throne", and will share his throne with the overcomers.
 

Dartman

Active member
Why do you associate the "last trump" of Paul's mystery with the "seventh trumpet"?
1) The words "first", and "last", have meaning.
2) They are listed sequentially.
3) The ONLY trump where the sequence is mentioned, coincides with the rest of Scripture regarding the 7th, Last, Trump of God.
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
1) The words "first", and "last", have meaning.
2) They are listed sequentially.
3) The ONLY trump where the sequence is mentioned, coincides with the rest of Scripture regarding the 7th, Last, Trump of God.
Last doesn't always mean "absolute" last.

It can mean last in a series, which in itself is not the final in a sequence.

"That was the last car to wash before our break."

:duh:
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
So, are you saying there are more that 7 trumps?
If so, why?
That, AND that just because the trump is the last doesn't mean it means it was the last in a series of other trumps. It could be the last thing to happen in a series of other things.

For example...

List 1: A bear, a table, a tree, and a trumpet.
List 2: Trumpet 1, Trumpet 2, .... Trumpet 6, Trumpet 7, the Final Trumpet.

:idunno:

The trumpet is the last in that first list, but it's not the last trumpet ever.
 
Top