Hello everyone

[Town Heretic]

Seeing as I'm a partying Pagan, I guess I'm good then

Most likely.

No, if you write something over and over and either mistranslate or deliberately change some of the words (like King James did in the KJV), THEN there's an issue.

Which we'd know how, exactly? Sort of self defeating as a proposition when you think on it. If you know about it it's corrected. If you don't...

With all the people that were alive in the time of Jesus Christ, don't you think SOMEONE would have written something down somewhere, ASIDE from the Apostles?

How much was written about various religious sects? How much of that survives? What's the percentage here? If those can't be answered it's a meaningless inquiry. If they can we have something approximating context to discuss, instead of suspicion.

Surely the Roman Authorities would have written something down in their documents given all the miracles Jesus was said to have performed.

Not if you understand how less than uncommon those claims were among religions of the day.

How many of those religious figures healed a man of his blindness and turned water into wine?

She said to the Centurion who winked at his fellows...

I don't think there ever will be PROOF, but it would be nice to have at least SOME evidence.

No, you mean more. The Bible wasn’t found whole cloth on someone’s doorstep. It’s books were written years apart and collected together.

No amount of debate is ever going to bring forth the evidence for or against the existence of God,

I don’t think it’s possible to make an objective case at all for either consideration. If God is and can be known the only proof that will satisfy the individual is subjective in nature.

and I think everyone knows it, but it's kinda fun to try . It always winds up hitting the same roadblock... Athiest: Is there an invisible Flying Spaghetti Monster living in the sky? Christian: Of course not. Athiest: Prove to me that there isn't. And there's the roadblock.

Nah, that one is beatable, since no Atheist believes it either and no evidence, subjective or objective, supports it. They just trot that place holder out to attempt to infer the argument their cardboard cut out stands for is as absurd when it isn’t anything of the sort.

The Athiest can't prove that there is, and the Christian can't prove that there ISN'T an invisible Flying Spaghetti Monster living in the sky.

Sure I can. I just set out why.

Oh, I'm not saying that God or Christ is responsible for the problems I had in my life.

Good, because that wouldn’t be rational of you and would bode ill for a reasonable conversation.

That wouldn't make any sense when I don't believe in God.

Which was my response.

However, the fact that IF he exists and he IS omnipotent, he would have seen how much I was suffering and very easily COULD have reached out his hand to at least take the edge off.

But could He have? Let’s consider it. Because if he does that for you then who decides where that ends? God knows more than you, surely he could stop you from making unwise decisions? What purpose could your sickness serve? Why on earth should you stub your toe, comes to it? The obligations of the genie God never end and life is self apparently about something other than our comfort, though there are men and women who have suffered horrendously and still found it in their faith, who have recognized that through every travail God remains with us.

Even THAT would have been greatly appreciated. Of course, that didn't happen, and never seems to happen, no matter how much people believe.

Really? I find my faith a great comfort when walking through and dealing with the difficulties of existence. I know any number of people who do. Perhaps the problem lies in your expectation.

I guess we'll see

It could happen.

 

[Nightangel1282]

Most likely.
Which we'd know how, exactly? Sort of self defeating as a proposition when you think on it. If you know about it it's corrected. If you don't...

I know that the first version of the bible was written a few hundred years after Jesus Christ died. If there's any Athiests or anybody who feels so inclined and happens to be reading this who could do me a favor and locate the exact information for me, I would greatly appreciate it.

How much was written about various religious sects? How much of that survives? What's the percentage here? If those can't be answered it's a meaningless inquiry. If they can we have something approximating context to discuss, instead of suspicion.
Not if you understand how less than uncommon those claims were among religions of the day.

I'd by lying if I said I have all the answers, but I'm not about to stand up and say Goddidit.

No, you mean more. The Bible wasn’t found whole cloth on someone’s doorstep. It’s books were written years apart and collected together.

So how does THAT make it any more true? It's just a collection of stories that were slapped together and passed out to the masses as "the Truth" in an effort to control them.

I don’t think it’s possible to make an objective case at all for either consideration. If God is and can be known the only proof that will satisfy the individual is subjective in nature.

With this, I will happily agree.

Nah, that one is beatable, since no Atheist believes it either and no evidence, subjective or objective, supports it. They just trot that place holder out to attempt to infer the argument their cardboard cut out stands for is as absurd when it isn’t anything of the sort.

Forgive me, but I don't believe there is any evidence, subjective or objective, for the existence of God either. Just like Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy.

But could He have? Let’s consider it. Because if he does that for you then who decides where that ends? God knows more than you, surely he could stop you from making unwise decisions? What purpose could your sickness serve? Why on earth should you stub your toe, comes to it? The obligations of the genie God never end and life is self apparently about something other than our comfort, though there are men and women who have suffered horrendously and still found it in their faith, who have recognized that through every travail God remains with us.

If God really wants disbelievers to believe in him, then he should provide some proof for his existence. My biological mother and father were there for me when I was going through my hard times, but God wasn't. To my mind, IF God exists, he strikes me as being like an extremely rich ruler of a country who refuses to help any of his people who wholeheartedly asks him for his assistance.

Really? I find my faith a great comfort when walking through and dealing with the difficulties of existence. I know any number of people who do. Perhaps the problem lies in your expectation.

Then that simply means that it's the right religious path for YOU and others who experience the same comfort. Paganism offers the same comfort to me as Christianity offers to you.

 

[Town Heretic]

I know that the first version of the bible was written a few hundred years after Jesus Christ died. If there's any Athiests or anybody who feels so inclined and happens to be reading this who could do me a favor and locate the exact information for me, I would greatly appreciate it.

Wait...did you just essentially admit to holding an opinion without sufficient information to sustain it? :squint: And, again, the Bible wasn't written a few hundred years after Christ's death. The Bible was compiled from written works, some within the life in being of those who witnessed the events. In any event, none of this has much to do with my observation that your copying complaint isn't actually self sustaining, is it?

Again, if the copying varied the text you'd have to have something to compare it to, which would defeat the alteration.

I'd by lying if I said I have all the answers, but I'm not about to stand up and say Goddidit.

I didn't ask you to say anything like it. I merely answered a question/qualm you appeared to have as best I could and, I think, on point. The lack of a great deal of note being paid to Christ or Christianity short of its rise in adherents and what comes with that is entirely consistent with the sweep of history and not reason for suspicion.

So how does THAT make it any more true?

It doesn't make it anything that it isn't, whatever the case. It simply puts your...slant on it in a different context.

It's just a collection of stories that were slapped together and passed out to the masses as "the Truth" in an effort to control them.

That's a silly thing to say to someone who hasn't offered you any reason to respond in that fashion. Have I insulted your faith in any particular? And yet you understand I differ with it dramatically. The books of the Bible are narratives and entertaining as such, without question. But there's no reason to label them slapped together and your conclusion concerning the motivation of the men who compiled them is even less supportable. Come now, surely we can have a more pleasant walk together.

Re: the case for God rests upon the subjective.

With this, I will happily agree.

Good. That makes both of us rational on some level.

Forgive me, but I don't believe there is any evidence, subjective or objective, for the existence of God either.

To the point, you'd have been within rights to assert what we've already agreed upon, the absence of an objective case for or against God in any understanding. But to say there is no subjective evidence is simply...well, wrong headed. You mean you lacked a subjective experience. Many people, in and out of the Body could match that declaration. Others, like me, have had exactly that experience.

Just like Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy.

Nothing like, since I don't recall anyone dying for or even living for these fabrications of human imagination and since no one in the history of man has advanced them as anything other than what they are...using them as a poor place holder, like the FSM, is a waste of time and I've already commented on that practice and its deficiency.

If God really wants disbelievers to believe in him, then he should provide some proof for his existence.

And Christendom answers that He has. The real question is what stood or stands between you and that? I don't know you well enough to say, but I know God well enough to say that something did and does.

My biological mother and father were there for me when I was going through my hard times, but God wasn't.

So you believed. So did Job. And yet He was. Even Christ in the midst of suffering experienced the doubt that lives within the flesh and felt forsaken. He wasn't either.

To my mind, IF God exists, he strikes me as being like an extremely rich ruler of a country who refuses to help any of his people who wholeheartedly asks him for his assistance.

And to my mind it's funny to suggest the existence of the Omni and then seek to supplant His understanding with our own.

Then that simply means that it's the right religious path for YOU and others who experience the same comfort.

You forget why I offered that then. You had only just decided that God's comfort,

"... never seems to happen, no matter how much people believe."​

To which my reply was meant as an amiable enough but contrary position.

Paganism offers the same comfort to me as Christianity offers to you.

That remains to be seen as we discuss further. From the outset I can say that my religion doesn't require me to feel embittered about yours. But let's continue. I have a number of questions along the way. :e4e:

 

[lightbringer]

The Bible was compiled from written works, some within the life in being of those who witnessed the events. In any event, none of this has much to do with my observation that your copying complaint isn't actually self sustaining, is it?

I would be very interested in reading this research ("some within the life of those who witnessed the events") do you have links to this research or names of books and authors?

Most Christian theological scholars are in agreement that the Bible was written approximately 4-6 generations after the crucifixion.

But there's no reason to label them slapped together and your conclusion concerning the motivation of the men who compiled them is even less supportable.

A little haphazard in the wording but none the less that is what happened, see "The Council of Nicaea 325 CE. In which designed and developed the Creed of Nicaea, which is to give the decision of what scriptures would be accepted and used to form the religion.

 

[Town Heretic]

I would be very interested in reading this research ("some within the life of those who witnessed the events") do you have links to this research or names of books and authors?

Yes, I provided them just after your bibliography in support of your declaration.

The epistles of Paul are to my understanding thought to have been dictated between 52 to 60 AD. Given Jesus died around 33 AD we have Paul easily enough teaching to those who could easily dismiss him for factual errors and accounts. And he notes the apostles and their work and testimony and the church they were building at the time of his early work.

A little haphazard in the wording but none the less that is what happened,

Well, if it isn't accurate it isn't what happened and the wording here is entirely the point.

see "The Council of Nicaea 325 CE. In which designed and developed the Creed of Nicaea, which is to give the decision of what scriptures would be accepted and used to form the religion.

I'm familiar with the Council of Nicaea. I cut my Atheists teeth in the rich tradition of the Anglican Church...Rather, serious men gave serious thought to a matter of crucial importance for Christendom and the result, however you want to argue it, stands as a testimony to that effort.

 

[Thunder's Muse]

If you haven't lived my life, you can never understand. Of course, if you want me to, I'll write out my life story here, but I must warn you that its contents may be considered by some to be disturbing. No joke.

You're right. No one can know exactly what you have been through. Every persons experience is different and just as important.

Sorry, but in the first seventeen years of my life, I experienced none of Gods love, even though I gave my life over to him wholeheartedly. In fact, as I said in an earlier post, my life only got worse. MUCH worse.

Oh, I can relate to this completely. I was a nutcase

Well, I suppose people handle hard times in different ways. Sometimes it might bring people to God, but in other cases, it brings people AWAY from him.

Yep. I didn't just push me away...I sprinted as fast as I could.

 

[lucy]

Merry meet NightAngel,

I see you are busy explaining yourself and your belief..

At least they are being more civil with you than they where with others of our belief, not sure why, might be that you are female and they are still in the notion that all Witches are females? LOL!

Hopefully they won't lump you into the same category they have others of our belief, pervert, baby killer, etc. etc.

They find it difficult to understand that Paganism is as varied as their denominations within Christianity.

You seem to have a well balanced understanding of Witch Craft and the ability to maintain your civility in conversation, I commend you! Not all within our belief can do so, good luck!

Merry part, so that we may again meet on our path of discovery!

True, some Christians have no idea what your belief system is about and terminology like "pagan" and "witch" have some very negative connotations for us Christians. It has been enlightening to me to learn about what you believe. In any case, I think those who profess to be Christian would do well to act like Christ in their encounters with others. Jesus hung out with those that were called "sinners" by the self-righteous bunch. He did not reject those who knew they had issues and who knew they were not righteous. He did condemn the self-righteous who thought they were without fault of any kind and who spent their time pointing fingers at everyone else. Pride in their hearts kept them from recognizing their need as is true of many even to this day.

It was the love of Christ that drew people to him, not condemnation.

Anyway, my prayer is that you and others of your belief system will find the love of Christ and realize that we are greatly loved by God and were created to express His inexpressible glory. Everything in nature and the universe expresses God's glory, albeit not perfectly anymore, since the Fall of man and all of nature with man. Still, the very order of the universe, the incredible complexity of biological systems, the beauty of nature, all witness to the glory and majesty of God.

So again I say "welcome" to anyone who is truly seeking honest dialogue and answers.

 

[lightbringer]

Yes, I provided them just after your bibliography in support of your declaration.

The epistles of Paul are to my understanding thought to have been dictated between 52 to 60 AD. Given Jesus died around 33 AD we have Paul easily enough teaching to those who could easily dismiss him for factual errors and accounts. And he notes the apostles and their work and testimony and the church they were building at the time of his early work.

To your understanding? OK, thought for a moment I would read something new that would bring some better understanding and proof to this claim.

 

[Nightangel1282]

Wait...did you just essentially admit to holding an opinion without sufficient information to sustain it? :squint: And, again, the Bible wasn't written a few hundred years after Christ's death. The Bible was compiled from written works, some within the life in being of those who witnessed the events. In any event, none of this has much to do with my observation that your copying complaint isn't actually self sustaining, is it?

I have the information, but finding it would be a major pain today as I am sick, and I find that reading bible verses gives me headaches on my GOOD days.

Again, if the copying varied the text you'd have to have something to compare it to, which would defeat the alteration.

I can guarantee you that the lastest version of the bible (I believe it's latest revision occurred in the 1970's, but don't quote me on that), would be noticably different from the first written version.

I didn't ask you to say anything like it. I merely answered a question/qualm you appeared to have as best I could and, I think, on point. The lack of a great deal of note being paid to Christ or Christianity short of its rise in adherents and what comes with that is entirely consistent with the sweep of history and not reason for suspicion.

Okay, I'll just leave this one be for now. Too sick to go into a long winded response to something I grudgingly admit, I have little knowledge about. Have to read up on it first when I'm not nursing a migrane with an ice pack >.<

That's a silly thing to say to someone who hasn't offered you any reason to respond in that fashion. Have I insulted your faith in any particular? And yet you understand I differ with it dramatically. The books of the Bible are narratives and entertaining as such, without question. But there's no reason to label them slapped together and your conclusion concerning the motivation of the men who compiled them is even less supportable. Come now, surely we can have a more pleasant walk together.

I'll apologize for coming off sounding rather harsh. I could have chosen my words a little more carefully, but I'm afraid that my assertion was, essentially, true. The rise of the church kept the population under tight control, and also worked to degrade and minimize women using myths and legends from other belief systems, which were then tweaked slightly, and then placed in a book as the word of Truth. Why do you think Pagans share some of your most important holidays?

Good. That makes both of us rational on some level.

Well, at least we're seeing eye to eye on SOMETHING lol

To the point, you'd have been within rights to assert what we've already agreed upon, the absence of an objective case for or against God in any understanding. But to say there is no subjective evidence is simply...well, wrong headed. You mean you lacked a subjective experience. Many people, in and out of the Body could match that declaration. Others, like me, have had exactly that experience.

If Subjective means personal experieces, then I apologize. That was my own blunder. (Head colds sometimes make me mildly retarded >.< I can't think straight, so I'm not the best at debating on days like today)

Nothing like, since I don't recall anyone dying for or even living for these fabrications of human imagination and since no one in the history of man has advanced them as anything other than what they are...using them as a poor place holder, like the FSM, is a waste of time and I've already commented on that practice and its deficiency.

Wasn't Santa Claus at least partially based on a Christian Saint called Saint Nicholas? He was also partially based on the Pagan God, the Holly King, so yes, he was (and by some people, still IS) worshipped by people other than children.

And Christendom answers that He has. The real question is what stood or stands between you and that? I don't know you well enough to say, but I know God well enough to say that something did and does.

Your religion says he has, but I need more than just that. He's GOD. Can't he come to Earth again and PROVE himself to the new generation of unbelievers? 2000 years is a heck of a long time to just up and vanish without a word!

So you believed. So did Job. And yet He was. Even Christ in the midst of suffering experienced the doubt that lives within the flesh and felt forsaken. He wasn't either.

Well, IF he was there, he sure did a lousy job of comforting me.

And to my mind it's funny to suggest the existence of the Omni and then seek to supplant His understanding with our own.

If he wanted to be worshipped by more people, he should have made it a little easier to understand his actions.

You forget why I offered that then. You had only just decided that God's comfort,

"... never seems to happen, no matter how much people believe."​

To which my reply was meant as an amiable enough but contrary position.

Nevertheless, I stand by what I said. Christianity is the right religious path for YOU. Witchcraft and Paganism is the right path for ME.

That remains to be seen as we discuss further. From the outset I can say that my religion doesn't require me to feel embittered about yours. But let's continue. I have a number of questions along the way. :e4e:

Paganism offers me more comfort than God ever did. And I don't see how you can say that it 'remains to be seen' when I'm the one who experienced the comfort mentioned. I don't feel embittered about your religion in and of itself. What DOES irk me about your religion is how many of the people within it condemn minorities for thinking differently from them.

 

[lightbringer]

True, some Christians have no idea what your belief system is about and terminology like "pagan" and "witch" have some very negative connotations for us Christians.

I guess it would, since Christianity must live with the knowledge of all those innocents that where slaughtered by and in the name of their belief, simply for not believing in the Christian way. Nightmares, Oh the horror of it all.

It has been enlightening to me to learn about what you believe. In any case, I think those who profess to be Christian would do well to act like Christ

To this I will say amen!

Jesus hung out with those that were called "sinners" by the self-righteous bunch.

Self-righteousness is one of your beliefs sins is it not? Maybe they couldn't hear the great teacher! Or was it just more fun being self-righteous?

He did condemn the self-righteous who thought they were without fault of any kind and who spent their time pointing fingers at everyone else. Pride in their hearts kept them from recognizing their need as is true of many even to this day.

Jesus must be setting on high, looking down and wondering why his children do not understand, and to think he gave his all for their salvation.

Anyway, my prayer is that you and others of your belief system will find the love of Christ

What makes you feel we haven't? Do you believe that the message that God gave to Jesus was only passed on to a select people or was it offered to all?

and realize that we are greatly loved by God and were created to express His inexpressible glory.

Who is this WE you speak of? Mankind in general or just Christians?

So again I say "welcome" to anyone who is truly seeking honest dialogue and answers.

Why else would I have come here, except for honest dialogue and answers?

I offer my sincerest and heart felt thanks to you, one of the few I've conversed with at TOL that actually sounds like the Christian that I imagine your Christ would approve of!

Blessed be!

 

[Nightangel1282]

Most Christian theological scholars are in agreement that the Bible was written approximately 4-6 generations after the crucifixion.

Thank you. And 4-6 generations would equate to around a few hundred years.

A little haphazard in the wording but none the less that is what happened, see "The Council of Nicaea 325 CE. In which designed and developed the Creed of Nicaea, which is to give the decision of what scriptures would be accepted and used to form the religion.

A HUGE thank you!! I knew there was a name for it, but I couldn't remember for the life of me >.<

 

[Nightangel1282]

You're right. No one can know exactly what you have been through. Every persons experience is different and just as important..

My sentiments exactly.

Oh, I can relate to this completely. I was a nutcase

It's always nice to know there's someone else who can relate to your life experiences in some way

Yep. I didn't just push me away...I sprinted as fast as I could

LOL!!!!

 

[Nightangel1282]

True, some Christians have no idea what your belief system is about and terminology like "pagan" and "witch" have some very negative connotations for us Christians. It has been enlightening to me to learn about what you believe. In any case, I think those who profess to be Christian would do well to act like Christ in their encounters with others. Jesus hung out with those that were called "sinners" by the self-righteous bunch. He did not reject those who knew they had issues and who knew they were not righteous. He did condemn the self-righteous who thought they were without fault of any kind and who spent their time pointing fingers at everyone else. Pride in their hearts kept them from recognizing their need as is true of many even to this day.

It was the love of Christ that drew people to him, not condemnation.

Anyway, my prayer is that you and others of your belief system will find the love of Christ and realize that we are greatly loved by God and were created to express His inexpressible glory. Everything in nature and the universe expresses God's glory, albeit not perfectly anymore, since the Fall of man and all of nature with man. Still, the very order of the universe, the incredible complexity of biological systems, the beauty of nature, all witness to the glory and majesty of God.

So again I say "welcome" to anyone who is truly seeking honest dialogue and answers.

I thank you very much for the kind and civil words It's Christians like you that I like. Non-judgemental and willing to listen and learn instead of condemning others for their beliefs

 

[lightbringer]

The epistles of Paul are to my understanding thought to have been dictated between 52 to 60 AD. Given Jesus died around 33 AD we have Paul easily enough teaching to those who could easily dismiss him for factual errors and accounts. And he notes the apostles and their work and testimony and the church they were building at the time of his early work.

Huh, correct me if I'm wrong but how could Christ die 33 years after the death of Christ (33 AD) ...it's best to use CE (Christian era) in this situation.

"thought to have been dictated between 52 to 60 AD."

There's that word again "Thought" , maybe, possibly, not certain but I thought???

 

[Nightangel1282]

Huh, correct me if I'm wrong but how could Christ die 33 years after the death of Christ (33 AD) ...it's best to use CE (Christian era) in this situation.

Whoa, I missed that post! Good question, light!

 

[lucy]

I guess it would, since Christianity must live with the knowledge of all those innocents that where slaughtered by and in the name of their belief, simply for not believing in the Christian way. Nightmares, Oh the horror of it all.

Ok, I don't know yet how to parse quotes out, so I will answer in green - sorry! Yes, many evils have been committed in the name of Christianity, as have been committed in the name of Allah, Hinduism, Druidism, and many other "isms" and religions. The key is "religions". Those who truly follow Christ will do as he did - He came, he loved, he healed, he raised from the dead, etc. He did not kill nor advocate the killing of anyone. People who murder in the name of Christ are not following Christ, whether it occurred during the time of the Crusades or at any other time in history.



To this I will say amen!



Self-righteousness is one of your beliefs sins is it not? Maybe they couldn't hear the great teacher! Or was it just more fun being self-righteous?

In a sense, yes, self-righteousness is the problem with man - he believes he is like God, who truly is the only one who is righteous.

Jesus must be setting on high, looking down and wondering why his children do not understand, and to think he gave his all for their salvation.
I don't think he is wondering why his children do not understand. Those who are his children may not have all the answers (how can the finite understand the infinite), but there is peace in the heart of one who trusts and follows Christ in the manner that He taught. No, life is not full of happy, happy, happy stuff all the time. Is your life without sorrow and pain under paganism? I would wager no one on earth experiences all joy and no pain. That is the consequence of the Fall of man and the subsequent distortion of all that God created.


What makes you feel we haven't? Do you believe that the message that God gave to Jesus was only passed on to a select people or was it offered to all?

I believe the message that God gave Jesus i.e. That man is separated from God and unable to reach God by his own merit, was passed on to everyone, not just a select few (some believe otherwise, but I don't.

Who is this WE you speak of? Mankind in general or just Christians?

The WE I spoke of is mankind, not just Christians.

Why else would I have come here, except for honest dialogue and answers? Ah, a seeker. Good for you!

I offer my sincerest and heart felt thanks to you, one of the few I've conversed with at TOL that actually sounds like the Christian that I imagine your Christ would approve of!
I know there are others who also would talk with you without judging. Unfortunately, there are a lot of "religious" Christians who talk the talk, but don't let the Holy Spirit control their mouths haha ! I think even pagans probably have the same trouble at times, no?

Blessed be!

And May the Lord bless you as well and enlighten your mind to the knowledge of Him..

 

[Town Heretic]

Huh, correct me if I'm wrong but how could Christ die 33 years after the death of Christ (33 AD) ...it's best to use CE (Christian era) in this situation.

Mea culpa. Too much addition and not enough subtraction. It read correctly so I didn't see it. Start with the Paul info and subtract the Jesus portion. I had several things going and hurried to post. Feel free to mock away on that one.

At any rate, Paul dies by 64 AD and so the dictated Epistles were written prior to that point and reflect in part the interaction on his part with the apostles of the Christ. Again, those apostles and Paul were very much preaching to and moving among those who would have easily enough been capable of countering any claims that were not common knowledge or contrary to the experience of many in the audience. But we have no protests and contrary declarations. Even the Jewish priests, who had every reason to produce these witnesses are silent on that account at a time when it would have been among the more direct and uncomplicated methods of dismissing this upstart cult among their flock.

The Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke fail to reference the destruction of the Jewish temple, something of fair importance that would likely not have gone without notice, especially in light of that act fulfilling the words of their savior. So it is reasonable to assert their writing occurred prior to 70 AD. There's more, but I don't mean to turn this thread into another discussion.

There's that word again "Thought" , maybe, possibly, not certain but I thought???

Absent video thought and inferred from historical markers is about as close as it gets. Paul couldn't have very well dictated them from beyond the grave, but the exact year is unknowable within that range.

 

[lightbringer]

Yes, many evils have been committed in the name of Christianity, as have been committed in the name of Allah, Hinduism, Druidism, and many other "isms" and religions. The key is "religions". Those who truly follow Christ will do as he did

I will agree with this statement up to and including Christianity and as you say in the name of Allah....but no further...history has a way of showing that.

People who murder in the name of Christ are not following Christ, whether it occurred during the time of the Crusades or at any other time in history.

Then they stopped following Christ 1500 plus years ago!

No, life is not full of happy, happy, happy stuff all the time. Is your life without sorrow and pain under paganism?

I have never expected it to be, only a near sighted fool would...but then that is not why I came to my faith nor do I expect my God to provide earthly needs or pleasures for me.

That is the consequence of the Fall of man and the subsequent distortion of all that God created.

The fall of man is found in Christianity and used as a means of discipline...the distortion of all that God created has not happened, man is still evolving along the path God has placed before him and one day will become the thinking, reasoning, compassionate, civilized creature that is our destiny.

Ah, a seeker. Good for you!

One that does not seek wisdom fails in his God given task!

I know there are others who also would talk with you without judging.

You are only the second at TOL, you must be new!

Unfortunately, there are a lot of "religious" Christians who talk the talk, but don't let the Holy Spirit control their mouths haha ! I think even pagans probably have the same trouble at times, no?

Man has difficulty when they put their mouth in motion before engaging their mind!

And May the Lord bless you as well and enlighten your mind to the knowledge of Him..

She and he has, thank you.

Blessed be, for we are God's children and represent God on the earthly plane.

Namaste = The Light of God in Me recognizes and honors The Light of God in You and in that recognition is our Oneness.

 

[lightbringer]

Mea culpa. Too much addition and not enough subtraction. It read correctly so I didn't see it. Start with the Paul info and subtract the Jesus portion. I had several things going and hurried to post. Feel free to mock away on that one.

^^^^^^^^^^^

Well, if it isn't accurate it isn't what happened and the wording here is entirely the point.

Back at ya! :chuckle: :mock: "Well, if it isn't accurate it isn't what happened and the wording here is entirely the point."

The Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke fail to reference the destruction of the Jewish temple, something of fair importance that would likely not have gone without notice, especially in light of that act fulfilling the words of their savior. So it is reasonable to assert their writing occurred prior to 70 AD. There's more, but I don't mean to turn this thread into another discussion.

Absent video thought and inferred from historical markers is about as close as it gets. Paul couldn't have very well dictated them from beyond the grave, but the exact year is unknowable within that range.

Using passages or historical markers from a text in order to prove that same text, is difficult, to say it would be at least embarrassing
and out right unprofessional when critiqued by a peer review, it would reduce the credibility of said researcher.

"Well, if it isn't accurate it isn't what happened and the wording here is entirely the point."

Now here, is where I wish to apologize! The mocking of and or the correction of simple mistakes when discussing an unprovable such as belief is not the way I was BTOL, (BTOL=before the TOL experience) back then I would have made the mental correction and continued with the business at hand, understanding that we all make hasty mistakes and errors.

As you said...Mea culpa!

But in my own defense, it is a tactic that has appeared DTOL (DTOL=During the TOL experience.) recently!

When discussing or debating an unprovable, such as my belief vs your belief, there can only be a few ultimate goals;

1. A conversion of one of us. (the ultimate goal...as explained to me by many Christians)

2. The alienation of one of us. (happens way too much, and shows that both parties have strong convictions in their belief or are just bull headed.)

3. The out right development of enemies. ( not what our beliefs are designed to do, and can only lead to bitterness and anger. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't our beliefs supposed to bring people together in order to worship God and find salvation?)

4. An impasse. (the saddest outcome of all, people divided, accomplishing nothing at all except the expenditure of their time and effort.)

The discussion of belief is difficult at best since it requires a personal experience that can not be proven, and unless you can explain your experience in a manner to show reason to believe, it will always be unproven to those around you!

So it all boils down to CYA...= can you articulate!?

 

[Town Heretic]

Using passages or historical markers from a text in order to prove that same text, is difficult, to say it would be at least embarrassing

Not to prove the veracity of the text, but to use as indicators of what the author knew and, more importantly, didn't know, which in turn would give insight into the time of its writing. If someone wrote about New York goings on in 2001, by way of example, mentioning a number or pertinent facts relating to the life of the city and omitted the fall of the World Trade Center Towers, it would be reasonable to infer the writing happened prior to September 11 of that year.

Now here, is where I wish to apologize! The mocking of and or the correction of simple mistakes when discussing an unprovable such as belief is not the way I was BTOL, (BTOL=before the TOL experience) back then I would have made the mental correction and continued with the business at hand, understanding that we all make hasty mistakes and errors.

I not only didn't have a problem with it, I joined in a bit, if uneasily as we don't have a great deal of history and there are those who will look to beat any exception into the sense of a rule to impair the larger function of an argument...I don't tend to jot and tittle, though my error was of the sort that BEGGED notice and ridicule and I happily accept it. I should have proofed.

As you said...Mea culpa!

But in my own defense, it is a tactic that has appeared DTOL (DTOL=During the TOL experience.) recently!

You've met LH then...

When discussing or debating an unprovable, such as my belief vs your belief, there can only be a few ultimate goals;

My only real interest, in this thread, was to have an amiable conversation on faith and to share my own impressions of the subject while inquiring into our hosts.

1. A conversion of one of us. (the ultimate goal...as explained to me by many Christians)

If you read much more of me here you understand my opinion on that. If not, I don't believe men convert anyone. We are, at best, instruments used to further a process, but it would be the height of arrogance (and even I'm not that tall) to think more.

2. The alienation of one of us. (happens way too much, and shows that both parties have strong convictions in their belief or are just bull headed.)

I'm not sure I take your meaning here. Do you mean taking discourse as the opportunity to shout down another?

3. The out right development of enemies. ( not what our beliefs are designed to do, and can only lead to bitterness and anger. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't our beliefs supposed to bring people together in order to worship God and find salvation?)

I'd say that runs contrary to the purpose of the cross, where the Christian is or should be concerned. Having lived more of my life as an Atheist I am perhaps a bit more inclined to see people first in their character and second in the expression of it through particular belief. I think it is easy to do that the other way around when you form yourself within an ideological shell and then go about the business of learning what the world thinks and is...but that way of seeing things tends to miss the mark in the examination of another more readily, or that has been my experience.

4. An impasse. (the saddest outcome of all, people divided, accomplishing nothing at all except the expenditure of their time and effort.)

I never find an insight into another human being's thinking a waste of effort and time and I frequently find that in sharing your own you plant seeds which may grow fruit at some later point. I recall now the examples of Godly men and women who kept me from dismissing the beneficent impact of their beliefs even as I found them without foundation in reason. I'm disappointed to not find a place in your listing for honest examination and a sharing of what is to each a sacred and honorable sort of trust.

I understand the absence, it being as rare a thing as a golden goose, but it can and I think should be the minimum threshold for sincere discourse on what constitutes for us, in our various ways, the holy and the true.

The discussion of belief is difficult at best since it requires a personal experience that can not be proven, and unless you can explain your experience in a manner to show reason to believe, it will always be unproven to those around you!

I don't believe it's possible to do that. If you observed me and had been a compatriot of mine through the years you'd without question have noted significant alterations in my approach to life and others. Does it follow that even a dramatic alteration in character and approach should conform our thinking to the acceptance of the notion that a particular manifestation of the divine is its origin? Of course not. God is found within and only within the course of each man's life. It is a thing to be related in hope, but which by its nature cannot be shared in understanding or demonstrated like an equation.

So it all boils down to CYA...= can you articulate!?

Well, that's a whole 'nother ballgame. As a rule, I'm not altogether inarticulate. Good talking with you, lb. :cheers: