Aimiel
Well-known member
Ah... now I understand how it is that you misunderstand Scripture: you twist meanings and draw false conclusions. Got it.
Um, no; it's clear from Scripture. Never seen anything to refute it yet.
Hell
- Thread starter Jacob
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Ok well maybe you weren’t meant to...that clarifies it then does it not?
Lines draw themselves as it were...in the sand?
...the sand your head is in...
sorry...that last one was unnecessary...
Aimiel
Well-known member
How would you take any possible meaning that could be imagined from:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
... and arrive at ANY other conclusion than the simple fact that they're people, conscious and being tormented by flames FOREVER?!?
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
... and arrive at ANY other conclusion than the simple fact that they're people, conscious and being tormented by flames FOREVER?!?
By reading texts like these and more:
Are Sodom and Gomorrah still burning as per Jude 7?
Is that poor slave with a hole in his ear IMMORTAL and STILL serving? Ex 21:5-6
How about Samuel? 1 Sam 1:22 Still abiding at the temple or now on Abraham’s very very crowded bosom?
Or is he asleep like Stephen? Acts 7:60
I mean are the holy angels “down below” as in hell? Is the Lamb in hell too? Rev 14:10 has the torment with fire and brimstone happening in their presence...that is awkward to worship the Lamb next too...especially since now its all in hell...in the presence being the same specific location...
Happily the book of Revelations are visions received by John...or are the 4 horsemen still riding forever too? Or maybe their horses are out to graze a little? Is babylon the city or a woman Rev 18:18? As her smoke rises up forever and ever...that’s way up there...what happens to the second beast...still plodding along some where? Does the Lamb really marry...hmmmm not sure how literal all this is...I mean does that second beast eat? Do the creatures float or are they on solid ground...do they poop? Kids ask questions these questions...
Aimiel
Well-known member
I still don't see, for the life of me, why you cannot understand a simple passage like this, which explains in detail what happens to whom for how long.
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Torment in flames, people, forever. Just don't see how you can ignore a simple explanation. It's clear to me and to most every Christian on earth. It was explained to the rich man in hell. It isn't arbitrary or debatable. It's reality. Face it.
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Torment in flames, people, forever. Just don't see how you can ignore a simple explanation. It's clear to me and to most every Christian on earth. It was explained to the rich man in hell. It isn't arbitrary or debatable. It's reality. Face it.
Wonder why Yahushua didnt tell the truth when He said Lazarus was sleeping...I mean IF when you die you go to Abrhaam’s bosom that is comforting right?...He was about comforting people right? Instead He said Lazarus was sleeping...and when the disciples thought that was a good sign of recovery He clarified...”no Lazarus is sleeping on Abraham’s lap”...oh wait NO He did NOT say that...but that’s the truth right?
So He lied? What did He say to clarify? Why did He not tell the truth? That Lazarus was on Abraham’s bosom...or?
Here are some audio files from Steve Gregg of The Narrow Path, a Radio Program on every day between Monday and Friday.
Three Views of Hell
Three Views of Hell
Aimiel
Well-known member
Hell and Death are spirits. They'll be tormented forever, just as Satan and everyone whose name is not found in the Book of Life will.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
The death of Death and Hell will take place eternally, in the Lake of Fire, where torment continues eternally.
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
You can't have smoke from torment ascending forever without that torment continuing forever.
WeberHome
New member
Re:
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Before the advent of clean air standards, setting dumps afire was a common method of refuse disposal. Well; according to Matt 10:28, the lake of brimstone is more like that than a rack.
Rev 20:14 is difficult to understand because we are so used to "death" as an abstract concept rather than a category. In other words: all things death are slated to be collected like trash and garbage for disposal in the lake of brimstone which, in God's world, suffices for a sanitary landfill. And I'm talking about a whole lots more than just people here. Whatever God wants out of His sight, no matter what it might be, is headed for the incinerator.
Hades is often described as the grave. But that's only half the picture. It's also a structure serving to warehouse the dead's immaterial remains. Apparently God wants that structure gotten rid of; never to be used to warehouse people's immaterial remains ever again.
Of course it makes more sense; but then the human IQ is produced by a 3-pound lump of flabby organic tissue, and not even all three of those pounds are devoted to cognitive processes. It's just not fair of you to expect people's flabby little IQ to plumb the logic of a genius smart enough to first invent, and then to create, an entire cosmos with all of its forms of life, matter, and energy.
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Re:
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Before the advent of clean air standards, setting dumps afire was a common method of refuse disposal. Well; according to Matt 10:28, the lake of brimstone is more like that than a rack.
Rev 20:14 is difficult to understand because we are so used to "death" as an abstract concept rather than a category. In other words: all things death are slated to be collected like trash and garbage for disposal in the lake of brimstone which, in God's world, suffices for a sanitary landfill. And I'm talking about a whole lots more than just people here. Whatever God wants out of His sight, no matter what it might be, is headed for the incinerator.
Hades is often described as the grave. But that's only half the picture. It's also a structure serving to warehouse the dead's immaterial remains. Apparently God wants that structure gotten rid of; never to be used to warehouse people's immaterial remains ever again.
Of course it makes more sense; but then the human IQ is produced by a 3-pound lump of flabby organic tissue, and not even all three of those pounds are devoted to cognitive processes. It's just not fair of you to expect people's flabby little IQ to plumb the logic of a genius smart enough to first invent, and then to create, an entire cosmos with all of its forms of life, matter, and energy.
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Go here and look up hades, hell, sheol using one of the concordances
www.biblehub.com
The concordance will also provide the greek or hebrew and you can cross-reference from there
Hell is the grave.
www.biblehub.com
The concordance will also provide the greek or hebrew and you can cross-reference from there
Hell is the grave.
way 2 go
Well-known member
hell is a place where the ones judged unsaved go to await judgement day
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
WeberHome
New member
Re:
Re:
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To me, the saddest part of that story in Luke 16:19-31 is the anxiety that the rich man suffered in concern for his kin; they were all on a path headed to join him and there was no way to wave them off: no texting, no snail mail, no skype, no instagram, no facefook, no nothing. That old saying "as silent as the grave" sure proves true. Even in our techno-savvy age, nobody yet has found a way to communicate with the afterlife.
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Re:
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To me, the saddest part of that story in Luke 16:19-31 is the anxiety that the rich man suffered in concern for his kin; they were all on a path headed to join him and there was no way to wave them off: no texting, no snail mail, no skype, no instagram, no facefook, no nothing. That old saying "as silent as the grave" sure proves true. Even in our techno-savvy age, nobody yet has found a way to communicate with the afterlife.
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How did the rich man recognize it was Abraham? Name tag?
How come Elisha’s bones were left to resurrect another dead if bodies are carried by angels to Abraham’s bosom...
How come Joseph’s bones were not carried with his body to Abraham’s bosom?
If spirit and not physical...how can a drop of physical water cool spirit tongue? Or is it spirit water too...?
Are flames spiritual or physical? Abraham holds all dead or just Lazarus?
How far is is far enough to not feel heat of hell fire?...how quiet are hell flames for rich man to speak with Abraham afar?
How come rich man’s name is forgotten but not that he had five brothers?
Why would Abraham teach one resurrected would not convince if that is exactly what One does...is the gospel actually
Sodom and Gomorrah still burning? Samual still abiding in the temple?
You are as wrong as Jonah...
WeberHome
New member
Re: Hell
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The dead are said to be sleeping because their deceased condition is only temporary for now; all are on track to be revived; viz: awakened-- some to a second death, and some to immortality.
The second death isn't said to be sleep because it's permanent; the reason being there is only one final resurrection allotted per person. (Dan 12:2, John 5:28-29)
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The dead are said to be sleeping because their deceased condition is only temporary for now; all are on track to be revived; viz: awakened-- some to a second death, and some to immortality.
The second death isn't said to be sleep because it's permanent; the reason being there is only one final resurrection allotted per person. (Dan 12:2, John 5:28-29)
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You do see two events here...torment...and ascending smoke...
And even in the physical literal realm the smoke of a fire lasts after the fire has gone out...
And notice it is the smoke of their torment NOT the smoke of their tormenting...
A slight and subtle difference between something completed and something ongoing...
way 2 go
Well-known member
the rich man is not alone in the fire, lots of people to ask
bodies are buried
Luk 16:22 ...rich man also died, and was buried;
who said there was water ? who said water would cool his tongue ?
the fire is not consuming and is causing grief \sorrow\ torment
Luk 16:24 From G3601; to grieve: - sorrow, torment.
btw fire is quiet
rich mans name was not used that does not equate forgotten
Abraham taught one risen from the dead would not convince people that there is a hell
because one rose from the dead & people are not convinced that there is a hell
Luk 16:28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.'
Luk 16:29 But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'
Luk 16:30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
Luk 16:31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"
it’s an abomination to speak with the dead...wonder who started this story...ironic with so many dead you think more stories would be had...a useful means to spread the truth
Instead it’s a folktale He references as the dead know nothing...they are asleep
He didn’t lie when He said that about His friend Lazarus who was dead and not in Abraham’s Bosom motel...or else He would have said that to comfort the mourning...
so it’s all spirits no material physical matter?
rich men usually know what to ask for...already odd that he wanted just a drop
right it’s not a fire to warm them from the cold
Just don’t see how a physical fire torments a spirit...
right roaring flames and screaming agonizing tormented crowds make it possible to speak with someone afar off...over an impassable gulf
then what is it? Use it...seems like the names mean it’s a documentary of the afterlife and not a morality folktale
Oh there is a death alright...just not like described in this popular morality folktale...