Hell

clefty

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Well, that certainly explains why you don't believe Jesus...
Oh I am convinced...of resurrection day...when the dead in Him rise...are not reconnected or reassembled...LOL



Thinking Samuel being raised from the dead is merely a symptom of you misunderstanding scripture.

Or what, do you think that Lazarus was also just a demon masquerading as Lazarus?

Imagine the shock of his sisters when they unwrap him and he is a demon?

Maybe THAT is why we dont here a gospel of Lazarus telling us about 4 days in Abraham’s Bosom motel?

Or maybe because Yahushua told the truth...He was dead...sleeping...see not woodenly literal...lol
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
Uh oh...looks like Abraham was wrong about that one rising from the dead not being convincing...I mean here even a demon masquerading as dead Samuel was convincing

looks like you are in persistent state of denial and a :troll:

:carryon:

Rev 22:11 Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy,
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
Deuteronomy 18

10There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer 11or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, 12for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD. And because of these abominations the LORD your God is driving them out before you.

Saul was aware of this instruction. He had evicted all mediums and spiritists from the land of Israel during his reign (1 Samuel 28:3). Therefore, when he consulted the witch at Endor, he was breaking God’s command as well as his own. The spirit that appeared to him could not have been from heaven, because God had specifically forbidden all such forms of communication with the dead.

If the spirit wasn’t Samuel, it could only have been a demon. Demons appearing to people on earth (and they do) does not tell us anything about life after death.
1. bible says Samuel repeatedly

1Sa 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul,
1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said,
1Sa 28:20 ...greatly feared from the words of Samuel.

2.Samuel's words came true 1Sa 31:6
which is the mark of a True Prophet

zero reasons to call Samuel a demon

So with that. If the interpretation of Luke 16:18-31 is taken literally (was spoken by Jesus himself) then Jesus would be violating Deuteronomy 18:10-12 which is an abomination to the LORD which of course he would not due.
no

Mat 17:3 And, behold! Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.

Therefore, Luke 16:18-31 must be a parable.
:nono:
 

clefty

New member
1. bible says Samuel repeatedly

1Sa 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul,
1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said,
1Sa 28:20 ...greatly feared from the words of Samuel.

It appears so...but then:

Numbers 22:28

“...and it (the donkey) said to Balaam, “What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?”

29 Balaam answered the donkey, “You have made a fool of me! If only I had a sword in my hand, I would kill you right now.”

30 The donkey said to Balaam, “Am I not your own donkey, which you have always ridden, to this day? Have I been in the habit of doing this to you?”

“No,” he said.” To the donkey?



2.Samuel's words came true 1Sa 31:6
which is the mark of a True Prophet

Serpent told the truth...Eve did not surely die when she touched or ate of the fruit...she died later...

zero reasons to call Samuel a demon
so the prohibition against talking to the dead is because the dead can easily be disturbed...even from Abraham’s bosom? Or from heaven? You know in His care...just called up and asked future events...

Disobedient as man is...odd it is so rare...


no

Mat 17:3 And, behold! Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.

Appeared to them...as in it looked like...

“ Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.” Matt 17:9

Do not tell the vision... not “tell no one what happened here”
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
It appears so...but then:

no "but" in the text

bible says Samuel repeatedly

1Sa 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul,
1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said,
1Sa 28:20 ...greatly feared from the words of Samuel.

Numbers 22:28

“...and it (the donkey) said to Balaam, “What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?”

29 Balaam answered the donkey, “You have made a fool of me! If only I had a sword in my hand, I would kill you right now.”

30 The donkey said to Balaam, “Am I not your own donkey, which you have always ridden, to this day? Have I been in the habit of doing this to you?”

“No,” he said.” To the donkey?
I trust the bible when it says Jesus said, Moses said, Abraham said, David said, Samuel said
Mat_4:10 Then Jesus said to him, "Be gone, Satan! For it is written, "'You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.'"
Exo_3:11 But Moses said to God, "Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh and bring the children of Israel out of Egypt?"
Gen_22:5 Then Abraham said to his young men, "Stay here with the donkey; I and the boy will go over there and worship and come again to you."
1Sa_17:32 And David said to Saul, "Let no man's heart fail because of him. Your servant will go and fight with this Philistine."
1Sa_28:15 And Samuel said to Saul,
Serpent told the truth...Eve did not surely die when she touched or ate of the fruit...she died later...
wrong again
Luk_9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.
Mat_22:32 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living."
Mar_12:27 He is not God of the dead, but of the living. You are quite wrong."

so the prohibition against

Eph_5:18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit,

Appeared to them...as in it looked like...

“ Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.” Matt 17:9

Do not tell the vision... not “tell no one what happened here”

you appear to be persistent in your denial
 

clefty

New member
no "but" in the text
right...because the text isn’t comparing how it appeared to Saul that Samual was talking to him with how it appeared that the donkey was talking to Balaam...

bible says Samuel repeatedly

1Sa 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul,
1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said,
1Sa 28:20 ...greatly feared from the words of Samuel.
so you think Samual could be roused from Abraham’s bosom despite Abraham teaching later that no one would believe...so either Abraham forgot about Samual persuading Saul or maybe Samual didn’t convince Saul? But wait...Saul was convinced...so Abraham lied?


I trust the bible when it says Jesus said, Moses said, Abraham said, David said, Samuel said
Mat_4:10 Then Jesus said to him, "Be gone, Satan! For it is written, "'You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.'"
Exo_3:11 But Moses said to God, "Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh and bring the children of Israel out of Egypt?"
Gen_22:5 Then Abraham said to his young men, "Stay here with the donkey; I and the boy will go over there and worship and come again to you."
1Sa_17:32 And David said to Saul, "Let no man's heart fail because of him. Your servant will go and fight with this Philistine."
1Sa_28:15 And Samuel said to Saul,
oh sure feel free to trust...trust too that the donkey spoke with Balaam...but because the Spirit was in it...just like the APPIRITION which appeared to speak to Saul was because the demon summoned was to look like Samual...

wrong again
Luk_9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.
Mat_22:32 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living."
Mar_12:27 He is not God of the dead, but of the living. You are quite wrong."

Right...so the physical dead...their spirits...bury the other dead bodies?
The dead don’t need a God...except to raise them...and they were wrong to ask if the resurrected will be married...


Eph_5:18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit,
prohibition not about alcohol...but to consult mediums to pretend to speak with the dead which is demons appearing as spirits from the dead



you appear to be persistent in your denial
see even things that appear to YOU are not what really is...I don’t deny that Saul though he saw Samual...demons are good at deception...Satan comes as an angel of light...I don’t deny that either

I don’t deny that Balaam thought his donkey was talking to him...or that the vision on the mount of transfiguration it appeared like Moses and Elijah were talking ...or that it look to John like a woman stood on the moon dressed with the sun
 

JudgeRightly

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right...because the text isn’t comparing how it appeared to Saul that Samual was talking to him with how it appeared that the donkey was talking to Balaam...

so you think Samual could be roused from Abraham’s bosom

You think such would be too hard for God to do?

:AMR:

despite Abraham teaching later that no one would believe...so either Abraham forgot about Samual persuading Saul or maybe Samual didn’t convince Saul? But wait...Saul was convinced...so Abraham lied?


oh sure feel free to trust...trust too that the donkey spoke with Balaam

God gave man the ability to speak.

Why couldn't he temporarily give an animal the ability to speak?

:AMR:

...but because the Spirit was in it...just like the APPIRITION which appeared to speak to Saul was because the demon summoned was to look like Samual...

If it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck, and is called a duck, it's probably a duck.

:think:

Right...so the physical dead...their spirits...bury the other dead bodies?
The dead don’t need a God...except to raise them...and they were wrong to ask if the resurrected will be married...


prohibition not about alcohol...but to consult mediums to pretend to speak with the dead which is demons appearing as spirits from the dead



what that Saul though he saw Samual nawwww...demons are good at deception...Satan comes as an angel of light

I don’t deny that Balaam thought his donkey was talking to him...the vision appeared like Moses and Elijah were talking ...a woman stood on the moon dressed with the sun

If the Bible says something happened, what reason, if any, do you have doubt it?
 

clefty

New member
You think such would be too hard for God to do?

:AMR:
so your god is controlled by requests from a witch?...Abraham taught none believe a risen dead...so he lied?


God gave man the ability to speak.

Why couldn't he temporarily give an animal the ability to speak?

:AMR:
He did...with His Spirit...but you think He would allow His Spirit to be called on by a witch...an abomination?



If it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck, and is called a duck, it's probably a duck.

:think:
probably...but also probably NOT...sometimes...is why counterfeits work...duh



If the Bible says something happened, what reason, if any, do you have doubt it?

Because the Bible “says” how men mean it to say...

But the Bible says the dead know nothing...not even when a witch calls them up...

and speaking with the dead is NOT prohibited because they can be summoned...but because men mean the deception to be total...the deception is that the dead CAN be summoned...

Just like some claim the Bible says we can eat swine...but well...that is false witness...

The pharisees claimed He broke the Sabbath...blasphemed...that is what the Bible says...

The Bible says He changed the customs Moses delivered...that’s what some jews claimed...
 

JudgeRightly

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so your god is controlled by requests from a witch?

No, I think that the witch was a fraud, and that God is able to raise the dead when He wants to, and especially if He wants to make a point.

...Abraham taught none believe a risen dead...

No, that's not what Abraham said.

Abraham said, as per Jesus' words:

[JESUS]Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ”[/JESUS] - Luke 16:29-31 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke16:29-31&version=NKJV

Get it right.

He did...with His Spirit...but you think He would allow His Spirit to be called on by a witch...an abomination?

I think a human has no power over the dead.

probably...but probably not sometimes...is why counterfeits work...duh

So you think that the Author of 1 Samuel, God, was deceived by a counterfeit?

You're more loony than I thought.

Because the Bible “says” how men mean it to say...dead know nothing...not even when a witch calls them up...

If you think the witch was the one who conjured up Samuel, you overestimate man, and underestimate God.

and speaking with the dead is NOT prohibited because they can be summoned...but because men mean the deception to be total...the deception is that the dead CAN be summoned...

Just like some claim the Bible says we can eat swine...but well...that is false witness...

You clearly haven't read your Bible recently, especially Paul's epistles.

:think:

Mmmmm, bacon...

The pharisees claimed He broke the Sabbath...blasphemed...that is what the Bible says...

Why do you doubt the Bible?
 

JudgeRightly

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The Bible says He changed the customs Moses delivered...that’s what some jews claimed...

The Bible does not say that Jesus changed the Law.

Jesus CORRECTED what people BELIEVED the Law said.
 

clefty

New member
No, I think that the witch was a fraud,
you think...well many men have thought many things...and added to the Word...

and that God is able to raise the dead when He wants to,
oh and when a witch wishes?

and especially if He wants to make a point.
like participate in an act of abomination?



No, that's not what Abraham said.

Abraham said, as per Jesus' words:

[JESUS]Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ”[/JESUS] - Luke 16:29-31 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke16:29-31&version=NKJV

Get it right.
why would they not be persuaded? Saul knew Moses and the abomination he participated in...he believed an apparition...Elijah ran from a woman he perceived stronger than the God he had just proven...



I think a human has no power over the dead.
they don’t...scripture makes that clear to most who would read...but you also think God needs witches...



So you think that the Author of 1 Samuel, God, was deceived by a counterfeit?
no just Saul...he thought the dead could be risen...by witches...

You're more loony than I thought.
right... your perceptions are the problem here...



If you think the witch was the one who conjured up Samuel, you overestimate man, and underestimate God.
ummm...no...Saul believed Samual was brought up by a witch...Saul asked the witch to have him leave Abraham’s Bosom motel...Abraham must have played along knowing a witch called


You clearly haven't read your Bible recently, especially Paul's epistles.

:think:

Mmmmm, bacon...
you mean the parts confirming we are sovereign citizens of Israel? Living as He did? Loving as He did?



Why do you doubt the Bible?
I doubt you...your ability to discern what is from above and what is from below...
 

clefty

New member
The Bible does not say that Jesus changed the Law.
sure it does...and most of Christianity believes it...that jewish false witness that He changed the customs Moses delivered...

Jesus CORRECTED what people BELIEVED the Law said.

Only those that would believe what is written what He taught...some continue to believe what they think...
 

JudgeRightly

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you think...well many men have thought many things...and added to the Word...

Which makes you doubt it.

You doubt the Bible more than you trust God to have it written in such a way that preserves it as much as possible.

Ye of little faith.

oh and when a witch wishes?

like participate in an act of abomination?

Please point out this "act of abomination" you think occurred.

why would they not be persuaded?

Because they didn't believe what Moses wrote.

Saul knew Moses and the abomination he participated in...he believed an apparition...Elijah ran from a woman he perceived stronger than the God he had just proven...

Saul was not righteous. He may have known what Moses wrote, but He didn't believe it.

As for Elijah, you'll have to provide the passage to refresh my memory on that...

they don’t...scripture makes that clear to most who would read...but you also think God needs witches...

No, I think He can work wickedness into His plans.

no just Saul...he thought the dead could be risen...by witches...

right... your perceptions are the problem here...

Says the one who can't read what is plainly written...

ummm...no...Saul believed Samuel was brought up by a witch...

So? That doesn't mean that she did. In fact, the text makes it fairly clear that she did not.

Saul asked the witch to have him leave Abraham’s Bosom

Did you not notice that the Bible does not record the witch doing anything at all, just that she sees Samuel, and describes him as rising out of the ground?

Read it again:

Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” And he said, “Bring up Samuel for me.”When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!”And the king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.”So he said to her, “What is his form?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down.Now Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” And Saul answered, “I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do.” - 1 Samuel 28:11-15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Samuel28:11-15&version=NKJV

The woman was shocked to see Samuel. Which means that she wasn't expecting to see Him. And for someone who claims to be a medium, it's a good sign of a fraud.


Why do you mock God's word?

Abraham must have played along knowing a witch called

Conjecture.

I recommend you just stick to what's written.

you mean the parts confirming we are sovereign citizens of Israel? Living as He did? Loving as He did?

Please provide references.

I doubt you...your ability to discern what is from above and what is from below...

No, you doubt the Bible, otherwise you wouldn't reject what it plainly and clearly says.

sure it does...and most of Christianity believes it...

No, it doesn't.

Jesus constantly says, "you have heard it said" and then follows up with, "but I say to you."

Compare what He said with the law.

You'll find that, if anything, what they had "heard it said" was incorrect, but what Jesus said to them, was what the law intended from the start.

that jewish false witness that He changed the customs Moses delivered...

Are you actually calling Jesus a false witness?

Only those that would believe what is written what He taught...some continue to believe what they think...

Again, if you compare what He said to them to what was written by Moses, you'll find it's the same.

If you compare what they had heard it said to what was written by Moses, you'll find that what they had heard was wrong.
 

clefty

New member
Which makes you doubt it.

You doubt the Bible more than you trust God to have it written in such a way that preserves it as much as possible.

Ye of little faith.
I dont read the Bible that the donkey spoke on its own...but received a Spirit to do so...

just like I dont read the Bible that Samual dead under His care was still summoned by a witch...

You want to add your thinking to it that’s on you...I have faith in what is actually written...dead know nothing...Saul perceived something that was not actual but impersonated...

Note how Saul asked what the witch “what did you see?” He didnt see it himself...she described what she SAW...Saul assumed it was Samual...and the writer kept the story in that narration style...just as Balsam spoke to the donkey thinking it was the donkey speaking...did not speak to the spirit...



Please point out this "act of abomination" you think occurred.
talking to the dead? Idolatry sorcery all abominations...BECAUSE THEY ARE FALSE...



Because they didn't believe what Moses wrote.
Moses didn’t write on the afterlife... even the sadduccees didnt believe in resurrection AS IT WAS NOT WRITTEN ON BY MOSES



Saul was not righteous. He may have known what Moses wrote, but He didn't believe it.
All witches were to be killed as they were abominations..Saul knew where one existed still...

As for Elijah, you'll have to provide the passage to refresh my memory on that...
He was running from Jezebel as he perceived she was to kill him...



No, I think He can work wickedness into His plans.
Wow really? So He uses witches now? Does that explain why so many who profess Him still follow evil ways?



Says the one who can't read what is plainly written...
what is plain is that Saul actually did NOT even see Samual but perceived what the witch saw as Samual...


So? That doesn't mean that she did. In fact, the text makes it fairly clear that she did not.
then why are you going on and on about Samaul being taken from Abraham’s bosom...not just woken up...but raised up from Abraham’s bosom...



Did you not notice that the Bible does not record the witch doing anything at all, just that she sees Samuel, and describes him as rising out of the ground?

Read it again:

Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” And he said, “Bring up Samuel for me.”When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!”And the king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.”So he said to her, “What is his form?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down.Now Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” And Saul answered, “I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do.” - 1 Samuel 28:11-15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Samuel28:11-15&version=NKJV

The woman was shocked to see Samuel. Which means that she wasn't expecting to see Him. And for someone who claims to be a medium, it's a good sign of a fraud.
so it was an imposter by a demon...ok thanks...my point...

Witch was surprised she saw anything as normally nothing happens and she pretends...certainly surprised she may possibly have power over those not only burning with scorched tongues but those in Abraham’s bosom motel...she probably thought those were beyond her control...



Why do you mock God's word?
because it’s a popular folk tale used for teaching forgiveness and not a teaching on the state of the dead



Conjecture.

I recommend you just stick to what's written.
LOL...if the good dead go to Abraham’s Bosom motel then Abraham must know who checks out to return to the surface having been summoned by a witch...and OK’d it...



Please provide references.
wow really...Eph 2:19 and well children know we are to live more like Him and love as He loved us...look that up yourself again...



No, you doubt the Bible, otherwise you wouldn't reject what it plainly and clearly says.
dead know nothing...His friend was asleep...DEAD...not checked into Abraham’s Bosom motel...



No, it doesn't.

Jesus constantly says, "you have heard it said" and then follows up with, "but I say to you."

Compare what He said with the law.

You'll find that, if anything, what they had "heard it said" was incorrect, but what Jesus said to them, was what the law intended from the start.

Do what they teach from Moses seat...not what they do...Matt 23:3

And yes they DO NOT believe they are to do that...some so MAD they think it dont apply to them...raptured themselves from obligations or accountability or responsibilities...squatters in the divided kingdom



Are you actually calling Jesus a false witness?
LOL...you are so twisted you dont know which way is UP...His way...

Actually you are calling Him a liar because He said His friend Lazarus was asleep...dead...but you insist he was in Abraham’s Bosom motel...So He lied...



Again, if you compare what He said to them to what was written by Moses, you'll find it's the same.

If you compare what they had heard it said to what was written by Moses, you'll find that what they had heard was wrong.

Just comparing what you post and what is written...thanks...

And MENE MENE TEKEL...
 

clefty

New member
Posting a youtube video isn't going to make me (or anyone, for that matter) watch it...

Would you like to instead provide a brief summary of it?

Wasn’t posted just for you...wasnt even addressed to you...feel free to reject it too...

but others might see that Saul was abandoned by Yah...Samual knew that...why would he even address Saul leaving Abraham’s Bosom motel...when he didnt speak to him while alive?

You really do cling desperately to man’s traditions and the lie “you shall not surely die”...

https://www.truthaboutdeath.com/q-and-a/id/1607/how-did-saul-speak-to-samuel-at-endor
 
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