You just don't get it, do you?
I refuse to respond to your arguments because they are based on a false premise. To do so would only validate your false premise.
Hell
- Thread starter Jacob
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I refuse to respond to your arguments because they are based on a false premise. To do so would only validate your false premise.
So he's being tormented in hell flames and all he asks for is something to cool his tongue?
Luke 16
30‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone is sent to them from the dead, they will repent.’
Any other scripture that states those (humans) who have died have the ability to converse with others after dieing an earthly death?
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.
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right...not the way you do...is why this discussion...
I base my arguments on how He answered the condition of His friend Lazarus...he is asleep...dead...
or did He lie? Deceive? As Lazarus was actually at Abraham’s Bosom Motel or on the other side of the gulf...
I base my argument that John was in the Spirit having a vision...as there is not actually a woman standing on the moon dressed with the sun...we would see that...
You've apparently never heard of a euphemism.
You also apparently can't understand figurative language.
sure I have...but it is not just that especially when He cleared it up by concluding he was not asleep but dead...DEAD
Not at Abraham’s Bosom motel either...
sure I can...that lake of fire death and sin and Satan and everything all burnt up is a good figurative to describe what it will be like when all is made new...no sorrow no pain no tears no curse
All that gone...no more...
Maybe thrown into something that becomes a sea of glass...?
All figurative...
He cleared it up because they were being basket cases.
They thought He meant that Lazarus was just asleep, that he would get well again.
Seriously, when was the last time you read your Bible?
These things He said, and after that He said to them, [JESUS]“Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”[/JESUS]Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.”However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.Then Jesus said to them plainly, [JESUS]“Lazarus is dead.And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, that you may believe. Nevertheless let us go to him.”[/JESUS]Then Thomas, who is called the Twin, said to his fellow disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with Him.” - John 11:11-16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John11:11-16&version=NKJV
John was very explicit.
And there's that "all or nothing" attitude of yours.
Have you ever considered that the Bible is to be read literally, but not woodenly literally?
You're presenting a false dichotomy.
You: It's either all literal or it's all figurative.
Me: Most is literal, with figures of speech mixed in like how any normal person speaks.
ttruscott
Well-known member
I have found a lot of help in http://www.bible.ca/su-hades.htm
about Hades and Sheol...though it does contradict the JW's take on things.
ttruscott
Well-known member
...and this place containing the lake of fire is called the outer darkness, Strong's G4655 [e] skotos darkness G1857 [e] exōteron outer in Matthew 8:12, Matthew 25:30 Luke 13:28.
way 2 go
Well-known member
1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" Saul answered, "I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams. Therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do."
yup...asleep...dead...not at Abraham’s Bosom motel...
LOL...John had a literal vision...
Uh oh...looks like Abraham was wrong about that one rising from the dead not being convincing...I mean here even a demon masquerading as dead Samuel was convincing
You're assuming that death means unconscious or cessation of existence.
Yet that's not what the Bible describes.
The Bible describes death as separation, not unconsciousness or non-existence.
God is the God of the living, not of the dead, yet Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are all dead, yet God is still the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
This (that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, AND that God is the God of the living, not the dead) IS ONLY TRUE if "death" = separation.
Physical death = separation of soul/spirit from body
Spiritual death = separation of soul/spirit (and body) from God.
And yet, what he saw will be ACTUAL EVENTS.
Well, that certainly explains why you don't believe Jesus...
Thinking Samuel being raised from the dead is merely a symptom of you misunderstanding scripture.
Or what, do you think that Lazarus was also just a demon masquerading as Lazarus?
Aimiel
Well-known member
There's smoke though, so there is torment... forever.
Deuteronomy 18
10There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer 11or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, 12for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD. And because of these abominations the LORD your God is driving them out before you.
Saul was aware of this instruction. He had evicted all mediums and spiritists from the land of Israel during his reign (1 Samuel 28:3). Therefore, when he consulted the witch at Endor, he was breaking God’s command as well as his own. The spirit that appeared to him could not have been from heaven, because God had specifically forbidden all such forms of communication with the dead.
If the spirit wasn’t Samuel, it could only have been a demon. Demons appearing to people on earth (and they do) does not tell us anything about life after death.
So with that. If the interpretation of Luke 16:18-31 is taken literally (was spoken by Jesus himself) then Jesus would be violating Deuteronomy 18:10-12 which is an abomination to the LORD which of course he would not due.
Therefore, Luke 16:18-31 must be a parable.
This is a non sequitur.
Both your premise and conclusion are fine, but your premise doesn't lead to that conclusion.
I agree, the spirit that appeared before the witch (but not Saul) could not have come from heaven.
I agree, that God had forbidden such communication with the dead.
But just because God gave a law that said not to do something doesn't mean that it cannot be done at all.
This premise is false.
The spirit was, in fact, Samuel.
We know this because the text says so.
Spoiler
Why you deny what is plainly and clearly written is beyond me.
Demons had nothing to do with 1 Samuel 28:3-25.
Another false premise, and a non-sequitur. Why would it be an abomination for Jesus, who is God, to describe what happened in Hell?
He wasn't inquiring of the dead, He was explaining what had gone on WITH the dead.
If literal, then him telling story goes against the dead have the ability to speak, of which is an abomination and would not use this as a literal example. For Him to tell a story that it is possible for the dead to speak, He would be contradicting the teachings in Deuteronomy and other teachings regarding the same.
Matthew 22:32
31And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God: 32‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.
He is not God of the dead, because the dead know nothing ... and He has no further interaction with them until they are resurrected either in the 1st or second resurrection.
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are dead and are awaiting resurrection.
”the rich man dead, speaking to Abraham who is dead, asking to send Lazaras who is dead.
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.
If the dead know nothing ... they can not think or speak or anything. Nothing is the dead do not know anything.
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Where does it state that the dead cannot speak?
So then God is not still the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?
I'm going to tell you right now that you are nowhere near mature enough to use Ecclesiastes in defense of your position.
Smoke lasts after the fire...