Does Luke 19:44 disprove Preterism?

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Getting back to Luke 19:44

We can go back to Justin Martyr and the other early church fathers, and they all believed and taught that Luke 19:44 was fulfilled in 70AD.

In fact, we can look at just about every recorded teachings in all of Christendom since 70AD, and everybody taught that Luke 19:44 was fulfilled in 70AD.

Then comes John Nelson Darby, and his invention of Dispensationalism.

Now we have mysteryboy, being a follower of Darby, and claiming Luke 19:44 was not fulfilled.
 

musterion

Well-known member
Nope.

I have never even hinted at extrabiblical inspiration.

Yeah, you did. Or your writing is so sloppy it could easily be taken to mean that. But that's not my fault, that's your fault.

Just use Luke 19:44 as the example.

I believe it was fulfilled in 70AD. I believe the million plus Jews who were killed were killed because they rejected their Messiah that God sent to them.
Again I point out to you - with all seriousness - that that would deny the dispensation of grace and make Paul a liar. But it's also odd that Christ didn't also kill EVERY SINGLE JEW throughout the Roman empire who also rejected Him. I mean, if He did what you say He did to Jerusalem, He's a respecter of persons, judging some for the very sin all of them had committed. And we know He is not a respecter of persons.

You claim Luke 19:44 didn't happen yet.
Not as written, no. Your own source confirmed it.

Either you're right, or I'm right. We both can't be right. It was either fulfilled or it wasn't.
True.

One of us is validating the verse, and one of us is teaching a falsehood that is contrary to scripture.
True...though neither of us "validate" anything. Or, we're both wrong because there's a third option we haven't considered, and that's the correct one. But yeah, at least one of us is wrong.
 

musterion

Well-known member
May I ask a serious question?

What distinctives to disp'ism (not doctrines generally found elsewhere) do you agree with? You said it does teach some truth...like what?
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Again I point out to you - with all seriousness - that that would deny the dispensation of grace.

Now were finally getting somewhere.

You deny Luke 19:44 because of your alleged time period that you call "the dispensation of grace".

You have to deny that Luke 19:44 was fulfilled, or your alleged time period, that is part of your Dispensationalism is proven false.

But it's also odd that Christ didn't also kill EVERY SINGLE JEW throughout the Roman empire who also rejected Him.

The prophecies always pertained to Jerusalem and Judaea.

I mean, if He did what you say He did, he's a respecter of persons, judging some for the very sin all of them had committed.

Even if the prophecy is a yet future prophecy (which it's not), only certain people are killed. The people who are killed are the people who rejected their Messiah.

How the heck is this going to happen in the future?

How is it possible for Christ Jesus to come back to planet earth, be rejected by a certain people, killed again, and then Jerusalem and the temple destroyed again?

You're so far out in left field on this one. Have you noticed that not one of your fellow Darby Followers has backed you on this?

Not as written, no. Your own source confirmed it.

I gave you a different quote from Josephus that confirms it, and have given numerous other quotes that confirm not one stone was left standing upon another.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
Getting back to Luke 19:44

We can go back to Justin Martyr and the other early church fathers, and they all believed and taught that Luke 19:44 was fulfilled in 70AD.

In fact, we can look at just about every recorded teachings in all of Christendom since 70AD, and everybody taught that Luke 19:44 was fulfilled in 70AD.

Then comes John Nelson Darby, and his invention of Dispensationalism.

Now we have mysteryboy, being a follower of Darby, and claiming Luke 19:44 was not fulfilled.

What about Luis De Alcazar?
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
(Luke 19:44) They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.

If we apply Dispensational eschatology to the above verse, nowhere does Dispensationalism teach that in the future after Christ Jesus allegedly returns to planet earth, does a certain people not recognize/reject Him.

When does this happen mysteryboy?
 

musterion

Well-known member
Now were finally getting somewhere.

No, we're not "finally getting somewhere," I raised this issue two months ago and you dismissed it as pointless.

You deny Luke 19:44 because of your alleged time period that you call "the dispensation of grace".
First, it's not alleged. Paul taught it repeatedly. Second, it's not a "time period." See here.

You have to deny that Luke 19:44 was fulfilled, or your alleged time period, that is part of your Dispensationalism is proven false.
Either that, or the dispensation of grace which God announced through the apostle Paul ended at some point before AD 70. That's the only alternative YOU have. Make the case that it did end.

How the heck is this going to happen in the future?
I won't pretend to know. :rapture:

How is it possible for Christ Jesus to come back to planet earth, be rejected by a certain people, killed again, and then Jerusalem and the temple destroyed again?
Who said He's coming back to die again?

You're whole problem is that you are blind to the unprophesied dispensation of grace under which Jews and Gentiles are now living.

You're so far out in left field on this one. Have you noticed that not one of your fellow Darby Followers has backed you on this?
So? Does that prove I'm wrong and that you're right?

I gave you a different quote from Josephus that confirms it, and have given numerous other quotes that confirm not one stone was left standing upon another.
Stones were still standing one upon another. Your #1 source said so.
 

musterion

Well-known member
(Luke 19:44) They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.

If we apply Dispensational eschatology to the above verse, nowhere does Dispensationalism teach that in the future after Christ Jesus allegedly returns to planet earth, does a certain people not recognize/reject Him.

Because the dispensation of grace was yet unrevealed.
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Either that, or the dispensation of grace which God announced through the apostle Paul ended at some point before AD 70.


You just said it wasn't a time period, and now you're making it a time period again.

If it's not a time period, how can it end?

If it's not a time period, why can't the destruction and deaths of over a million Jews in 70AD happen at the same time of "the dispensation of grace"?

You need to make up your mind mysteryboy.
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
I believe the first resurrection happened in 70AD. At that resurrection, all believers from Adam to the last believer who died right before the resurrection were resurrected and went to Heaven with Christ Jesus and are in the kingdom with Him right now. Either some of the Saints, or all of them, are reigning with Him right now.

When the second resurrection happens (when the thousand years is over), the unbelievers will be resurrected and stand before God.

All believers who have died since the resurrection in 70AD have instantly gone to the kingdom with the Saints who have been reigning with Him.

I've got one for you!

I believe that the first resurrection is when an unbeliever is born again. The first death is physical; the second is eternal.

See Rev 20:6KJV
 
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musterion

Well-known member
[/YELLOW]

You just said it wasn't a time period, and now you're making it a time period again.

No I'm not. From that, I can tell you didn't bother reading the link that explains it.

If it's not a time period, how can it end?

It ends when God speaks again in wrath instead of extending grace, which He will do.
 

musterion

Well-known member
So which distinctives of disp'sim you agree with, so that we can know you don't think disp'is is completely false?
 

lifeisgood

New member
Josephus and the Roman historian Tacitus wrote about it:

"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities." - Jewish Wars, VI-V-3

"In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure." - Histories, Book 5, v. 13

Were Josephus and the Roman historian Tacitus there and did they saw it themselves?

No?

Did they leave any written words (I’ll take scribbles on pottery, animal skins, etc.) from EYE WITNESSES' account of such a MOMENTOUS event as the second coming of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?

No?

Oh, well.

In addition to the two quotes above, the Jerusalem Talmud and the Babylonian Talmud both speak of the western light going out every night from 30AD to 70AD, the red strap not turning white from 30AD to 70AD, the gates opening each night from 30AD to 70AD, and the black stone was picked 40 years in a row from 30AD to 70AD.

REAL witnesses of Jesus Christ and His FINISHED/COMPLETED work on the Cross of Calvary.

All that came BEFORE Jesus Christ and His Work on the Cross of Calvary was no longer needed, even the buildings and utensils within the Temple knew that and worked accordingly.
 

musterion

Well-known member
Were Josephus and the Roman historian Tacitus there and did they saw it themselves?

No?

Did they leave any written words (I’ll take scribbles on pottery, animal skins, etc.) from EYE WITNESSES' account of such a MOMENTOUS event as the second coming of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?

No?

Oh, well.

Tread lightly, sir, you are questioning the perfect.
 

kmoney

New member
Hall of Fame
I believe the first resurrection happened in 70AD. At that resurrection, all believers from Adam to the last believer who died right before the resurrection were resurrected and went to Heaven with Christ Jesus and are in the kingdom with Him right now. Either some of the Saints, or all of them, are reigning with Him right now.

When the second resurrection happens (when the thousand years is over), the unbelievers will be resurrected and stand before God.

All believers who have died since the resurrection in 70AD have instantly gone to the kingdom with the Saints who have been reigning with Him.
I thought you were saying that Rev 20:5 was still to come, you meant it for 70AD. So everything that happened in Revelation prior to 20:5 happened prior to 70AD?

(1 Thess 4:17) After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
It doesn't say they will be caught up once they die.

I believe it was a prophecy just for the Jews.

I believe it happened 66AD - 70AD. Over a million Jews were killed in Jerusalem and Judaea during this great tribulation.

Then when the "tares" were removed, the "wheat" were gathered and taken to the barn (the resurrection)
So you'd say this....

Luk 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luk 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Were the tares being killed during the battles between 66-70?
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
That's not the point.

The point is that Dispensationalism didn't exist for almost 1,800 years until Darby invented it.


No, punk, here is the point:


1. It's irrelevant as to when truth is discovered, devil boy. Craigie once again asserts that Roman Catholicism is true, "The Reformation" in the 1500's is false, and "Spherical earth-ism" is false, as the earth is flat. As STP points out, according to Tellalie, if no one taught, or even heard that Jesus is the Christ until 1830, it would prove him to be an invention and a fraud. And Tellalie asserts that God the Father was not God the father, until the Lord Jesus Christ revealed Him as such.


The punk still spams this sophistry, after 4 years, as one of his main "arguments" against MAD/dispensationalism. It is sophistry, and satanic. And he lied about it. To wit, one of his over 10 "I never said"'s, where I caught him lying:


2. "That's not my argument. I have never said that dispensationalism was "wrong" because of how old it was. I specifically said that no one taught about Christ coming back twice before Darby did."-Tet.


The habitual liar of TOL-Craigie Tellalie




As for fallible and infallible, there has only been one man to ever walk planet earth who was infallible, and that was Christ Jesus.

Caught, in another lie, as one of his other satanic "arguments," of sophistry, is that dispensationalism is false, either because it is taught by:


-men, or,

-infallible men

He asserts that he is taught by infallible men, proving that he lied again, when he said "there has only been one man to ever walk planet earth who was infallible, and that was Christ Jesus," as he does not believe that. He asserts that one of his "arguments" against dispensationalism is that is taught by "fallable men:"

"The reason you don't know is because there is no one name of who invented Preterism.All anyone has to do is google "who invented Dispensationalism" to find over 50,000 pages showing it was Darby.D o the same with Preterism, and you won't find any consensus for one person.That should tell you something. -Craigie

So, he admits that he follows the teachings of men, Preterist teachers, after years of sophistry, deceit, in criticizing us meanie MADists, for "following the teachings of men," while denying that he does.

Here, he claims his Preterism/AD 70-ism, is taught by infallible men, in contrast to dispensatiomnalism:



"Yes Mr. Whalen, they were fallible men who invented dispensationalism just over 150 years ago.Mr. Whalen, you might want to ask yourself why you follow the teachings of these fallible men?"-Tet., the Preterist/Roman Catholic


Show us these fallible men we should follow, Craigie, as you say you claim you follow.

Are not all men fallible, devil boy? If so, how does your "they were fallible men who invented dispensationalism just over 150 years ago" say anything, but prove that you engage in deceptive argumentation, sophistry, to satisfy your obsession?


"A secret parenthetical time period is a false theory made up by fallible men.”-Preterist con man “tetelestai,” AKA Craigie


"MAD is a false non-Biblical belief system that was made up by fallable men."-Preterist Craigee Tet.


Show us these fallible men we should follow, Craigie, as you say you claim you follow.


Are not all men, fallible, devil boy? If so, how does your "they were fallible men who invented dispensationalism just over 150 years ago" say anything, but prove that you engage in deceptive argumentation, sophistry, to satisfy your obsession?


"Of course, the mutt follows the teachings of infallible men, such as the pope, right Wimpy?


More hypocrisy:


"Do the same with Preterism, and you won't find any consensus for one person."-Craigie

Vs.

"MAD cannot even agree on........................................."-Tettie, over, and over again, on TOL


Take a bow, actress.



And it is sophistry, satanic, when he "argues" that others "follow the teachings of men," as all he has to do is make his case, all of us have been taught by men, as that is one of the teaching ministries within the boc. Should we follow you,Craigie? Are you a man?(rhtorical q).
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
The only man to ever walk planet earth who was infallible was Christ Jesus.

It was that infallible man (Christ Jesus), who said not one stone would be left standing upon another. That prophecy was fulfilled in 70AD.

It was that infallible man (Christ Jesus) who said some would not taste death until they saw Him coming in His kingdom. That prophecy was fulfilled in 70AD

It was that infallible man (Christ Jesus) who said the generation of His contemporaries would not all pass away before the prophecies He gave would be fulfilled. That prophecy was fulfilled in 70AD.

Lied again.


No, habitual liar, you assert, on record, as one of your "arguments" against dispensationalism, as to why it is a "false belief system," is that it is/was taught by "fallible men." So, devil boy, either:

-Produce these infallible men, identifying them, that teach/have taught you/others, your AD 70-ism/Preterism, making it "not false, or,

-Admit that you are so obsessed with allegedly disproving dispensationalism, that you have been enaging in a satanic "argument" of deceit, sophistry.


Watch this Preterist punk deflect, spin, this, with more deception....Watch...
 
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