Does God know the future?
- Thread starter intro2faith
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intro2faith said:Hmm...no one is responding yet...hehe.
Please tell me if you think my view is totally twisted...I don't really want to be twisted!
Our problem is with your view of foreknowledge and the incoherence in light of free will. Calvinism, Arminianism, or Open Theism? They all approach election from a different angle. They are not all equally correct.
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intro2faith said:Freak,
I know exactly where you're coming from.
Does the future exist for God to see who will or will not choose Him?
intro2faith said:
This is true for some, but not all cases (point x in time does not fix point y in time, except at death when our destinies are sealed):
i) A person is unsaved and remains unsaved. Unbeliever------>unbeliever OR a person is saved and remains saved. Believer----->believer.
ii) a person is saved, then reverts back to godlessness. Believer------->unbeliever (apostasy is falling away from the truth).
iii) a person appears to be saved (mistaken identity), but is not in reality. They then manifest their true nature and quit the hypocrisy. They were stillborns into the kingdom. They did not have a genuine heart conversion and 'fall away'. Unbeliever---->unbeliever.
The parable of the soils/seed highlight each of these groups (read the context and grammar carefully).
There is also a difference between a careless sinner, a convicted sinner (may even appear to have remorse and look saved), and a converted sinner (repentant believer). God alone knows the heart and state of a man.
There is also a difference between struggling and isolated lapses, and defiant renunciation and rebellion to the end.
It is disingenuous to think a 'believer' can be identical to unbelievers or their own former state of selfishness and still be saved. By definition, they are an unbeliever.
It is a false dichotomy (logical fallacy) to assume that because they are not believing in the end that they never were a believer or that they are a believer despite a state of unbelief just because they believed in the distant past. The third alternative is some once believed, but later apostasized. Some of these will return to the faith, while others never do (Charles Templeton; Judas).
kmoney said:
How does God know the future if it is not there yet to know? He knows it as possible until it becomes actual. Other things are predictions/probabilities. What He does know about the future is what He will make happen (He does not make everything happen). He knows that Russia will not blow up the planet, because He has the power to return and thwart this. His Second Coming is in His control. Our sun will not die and freeze us, nor will things blow up or get hit by a comet. God can stop these things, since He has promised to not destroy us with a flood and will return to set up His kingdom. This does not mean He dictates or knows who will win an Olympic Gold Medal trillions of years ago. The future event would have already happened to be a possible object of knowledge for the omniscient God to know. He does not just 'see' into the future. The film is not completed to view. Speculative ideas of 4th dimensions are not needed in light of the biblical revelation that God experiences His Story in an everlasting duration of time/sequence/succession. Time is an aspect of His being and does not limit Him. He simply does not know every future detail because it is logically unknowable, even for an omniscient being (cf. omnipotence does not mean to do self-contradictory, illogical things).
This brings us back to the topic of the thread. Can those who God knows will choose Him choose to reject Him instead?intro2faith said:Freak,
I know exactly where you're coming from.
If not then how can you say that we have a free will?
If so, then how can you say that God's knows what we will do?
This is the dillema which you started the thread to explore. So far we have the Open Theists presenting a reasoned case that resolves the logical dillemma while nancy, Freak, and yourself seem content to live with the contradiction in spite of a perfectly Biblical alternative. Why? What is in it for you to cling to a position that is irrational and unecessary? I don't get it.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Z Man
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Sounds like my kinda theology!Knight said:
Yeah! Now that's what I'm taking about Knight! Bout time you got something right!Think of it like this (keep in mind this is just a example). I tell my wife that tomorrow at 3PM I will mow the lawn. In a sense I have partially closed the future in that 3PM is settled for lawn mowing time.
God on the other hand is God.
If He determines that the rapture will happen on June 8th 2025 at 3PM who is gonna stop Him?
Uh.... I sense trouble here.. partially closed?
I have a question here; one that I think SOTK already brought up, but no one seriously took a look at them.
You state that God is God, and that no one can stop Him and that He can bring an event to pass. My question is this; how can God do such a thing without infringing upon a person's 'freewill'?
This is the eternal 'Open Theists Dilemma'...
Infringing upon a will does not remove it.Z Man said:
Look what God went through with Jonah.
God put Jonah in a fish for three days in an attempt to get Jonah's will to conform to God's will. None of this removed Jonah's will! Influencing a person is not the same at all as controlling a person.
This is all really basic stuff.
Agape4Robin
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:chuckle:
I must have missed the part where He says He picks the sheep individually a millennia ago.Z Man said:
Z Man
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You said God is God, and no one can stop Him. But at the same time, you believe He 'influences' people to conform to His will. I don't see 'freewill' anywhere in any of this.Knight said:
If you truly beleive all of this, why isn't everyone saved? Does not God desire that all be saved? Isn't He God? Who can stop Him from saving them?
God isn't a piece of paper or anything remotely close to a piece of paper.Z Man said:
God is a Living God.
God is not an inanimate object yet God is a animated Living being.
I realize you are attempting to make an analogy but words have meanings and its important that we make accurate analogies and use words that more closely drive home the point we are trying to make.
When I said God is God and no one is going to stop Him I am referring to when God wants to bring something to pass.Z Man said:
He wiped out the world with a flood.
He will eventually come back to judge the earth.
God is God and can do these things when He pleases.
Some people choose to reject God and God isn't going to force them to love Him.
God makes it clear that it is men who choose to reject Him....
Romans 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.” 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man — and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
Z Man, your theology flies in the face of the verses above. You would have us believe that it was God and not man that forced certain people to have no hope for atonement and it was God who forced them to reject Him even though God says He desires all men come to Him.
Emo
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Z Man said:
This is the whole point, Zman, if God wants something done His way then He has the option to make it happen at once or He can utilize His superior intelligence to influence specific individuals to conform to His will. He chooses the latter primarily because of His desire to have a relationship with His creation. You think He chose the former since you believe He has exhaustively & completely made up His mind light years ahead of time.
This is very simple really: Lots of people think that Jesus is or was not God and do not think that He died for our sins & was resurrected, so there really is nothing to look forward to (heaven) & are simply satisfied with their ignorant thoughts of an earthy grave after death & that's the end of it. Others are foolish and selfish enough to actually think they can save themselves from eternal damnation. :doh:
Of course, why would He painstakingly go through the horrendous process of the crucifixion.
Are you kidding?nancy said:
Come on nancy! Seriously!!! Turn on your noggin'.
When a plane flies, it flies a body of people. Clete wasn't referring to the plane itself the metal and wires etc. yet the group of people who choose to ride on the plane.
Its amazing how your theology forces you to make the most insane comments.