Does God know the future?

[intro2faith]

This brings us back to the topic of the thread. Can those who God knows will choose Him choose to reject Him instead?

If not then how can you say that we have a free will?

If so, then how can you say that God's knows what we will do?

This is the dillema which you started the thread to explore. So far we have the Open Theists presenting a reasoned case that resolves the logical dillemma while nancy, Freak, and yourself seem content to live with the contradiction in spite of a perfectly Biblical alternative. Why? What is in it for you to cling to a position that is irrational and unecessary? I don't get it.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Because...what seems totally irrational to man, is not always irrational to God. I'm just saying that when God says He knows ALL and has NO limitations, He means it. Saying God cannot know the future is a limitation. He may choose not to know the future sometimes, but He definately CAN if He chooses.

 

[nancy]

The only reason i made the comment is because that would be the only argument that would try to get around the elect being the group of people.

Knight, do you think we are so daft to believe that a group of PEOPLE are not composed of INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE.

You are either being totally nieve or trying to pull the wool over our eyes.

If the elect is a is a specific group of people then it is number of specific individual people who are predestined.

 

[Z Man]

God is NOT in the business of having us as robots. If you feel loving God By him forcing you, that isn't love. We wants us to FREELY give our love for Him as He does for us. What is your problem with this basic relationship with God?

Who said God has to 'force' us to love Him? He doesn't force us; He simply changes our hearts.

 

[Z Man]

God isn't a piece of paper or anything remotely close to a piece of paper.

God is a Living God.

God is not an inanimate object yet God is a animated Living being.

I realize you are attempting to make an analogy but words have meanings and its important that we make accurate analogies and use words that more closely drive home the point we are trying to make.

Yeah, it was just an analogy.

My point was that God is above time. My analogy came from a very famous theologian named C.S. Lewis.

 

[Z Man]

When I said God is God and no one is going to stop Him I am referring to when God wants to bring something to pass.

He wiped out the world with a flood.

He will eventually come back to judge the earth.

God is God and can do these things when He pleases.

Some people choose to reject God and God isn't going to force them to love Him.

God makes it clear that it is men who choose to reject Him....

Romans 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.” 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man — and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

Z Man, your theology flies in the face of the verses above. You would have us believe that it was God and not man that forced certain people to have no hope for atonement and it was God who forced them to reject Him even though God says He desires all men come to Him.

I agree that men reject Christ. But, I also believe that means EVERY SINGLE HUMAN ON THE PLANET, not just 'some'. Every man rejects God, so says the Bible.

 

[Z Man]

Lots of people think that Jesus is or was not God and do not think that He died for our sins & was resurrected, so there really is nothing to look forward to (heaven) & are simply satisfied with their ignorant thoughts of an earthy grave after death & that's the end of it. Others are foolish and selfish enough to actually think they can save themselves from eternal damnation. :doh:

But this wasn't you once, eh? Only the 'foolish and ignorant and selfish' people of the world reject Christ. Smarter and more caring people, such as yourselves, are the only ones 'bright' enough to 'get saved'?

Please...

:vomit:

 

[Z Man]

Are you kidding?

Come on nancy! Seriously!!! Turn on your noggin'.

When a plane flies, it flies a body of people. Clete wasn't referring to the plane itself the metal and wires etc. yet the group of people who choose to ride on the plane.

Its amazing how your theology forces you to make the most insane comments.

Ha ha! Knight gets on me for making an analogy about God and time by referring to God as a peice of paper, and here he is vehemently sticking up for an analogy that refers to the 'Body of Christ' as an airplane! :crackup:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Knight, do you think we are so daft to believe that a group of PEOPLE are not composed of INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE.

Nancy I have already addressed this haven't I?

No one, not I, not Clete, not Godrulz, not Emo, no one is claiming that a group of people are not composed of individuals. At this point in the discussion we can only assume that . . .

There is one of two options . . .

Either you are . . .

Incredibly stupid.

Or...

You are intentionally acting stupid in the hope that people will assume you have some sort of reading or mental disability.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Ha ha! Knight gets on me for making an analogy about God and time by referring to God as a peice of paper, and here he is vehemently sticking up for an analogy that refers to the 'Body of Christ' as an airplane! :crackup:

Z Man, are you just as stupid as nancy?

Are you two in a battle for "stupidest poster of the year" award?

I was explaining to nancy that the airplane WAS NOT analogous to the group of people. It was the group of people who board the airplane that is analogous to the Body of Christ.

 

[novice]

Knight, isn't there a TOL provision to ban people on account of extreme ignorance?

Z Man, and nancy are such candidates. They are simply too idiotic to carry on any type of rational debate. I vote that they be banned so we can carry on with others that have the ability to critically think.

 

[intro2faith]

Z Man, are you just as stupid as nancy?

Are you two in a battle for "stupidest poster of the year" award?

I was explaining to nancy that the airplane WAS NOT analogous to the group of people. It was the group of people who board the airplane that is analogous to the Body of Christ.

Knight,

Is that how you uplift people? By calling them stupid? Our words are to be uplifting and edifying. Instead of saying that someone is "stupid" you could say something a little more Godly. That doesn't mean you have to be all "oh, you're right" and suck up to people all the time. It just means that if we're going to be pointing out something bad in another person, we should say it with LOVE. I may be wrong. You may have meant that to sound loving, but it just did not come across that way to me. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Z Man]

Z Man, are you just as stupid as nancy?

Are you two in a battle for "stupidest poster of the year" award?

I was explaining to nancy that the airplane WAS NOT analogous to the group of people. It was the group of people who board the airplane that is analogous to the Body of Christ.

So let me get this straight:

To explain what 'corporate election' means, Clete posts an analogy stating that:

Ephesians talks about us being predestined IN CHRIST. Just as if when you get on a plane bound for Dallas, you were predestined to go to Dallas by virtue of the fact that you got IN THE PLANE. It was the plane (i.e. the group) that was predestined not you personally.

Now clearly, here we see Clete make an analogy between being IN CHRIST and being IN THE PLANE headed for Dallas. Also, Clete says that "the plane (i.e. the group) was predestined". Thus indicating that the plane and the group are the same.

Either you and Clete disagree, or you are just making stuff up as we go along just so you won't look stupid. Which is it?

 

[Poly]

Knight, isn't there a TOL provision to ban people on account of extreme ignorance?

But wouldn't that only leave about 15 people on TOL?

(Sorry, couldn't resist. :noid: )

 

[Clete]

Because...what seems totally irrational to man, is not always irrational to God.

This is not so. I'm not talking about something that is difficult to figure out. I'm not talking about something that could be worked out if only we were smart enough. I'm talking about something that is irrational, something that cannot be done at all because to do it would be to not do it. Two contradictory ideas cannot both be true at the same time and in the same relationship. It's called the law of non-contradiction and it applies to all things which are real. You do believe that God is real, don't you?

I'm just saying that when God says He knows ALL and has NO limitations, He means it. Saying God cannot know the future is a limitation. He may choose not to know the future sometimes, but He definitely CAN if He chooses.

Is God able to sin?
Is God able to create Himself?
Is God able to cease His own existence?
Is God able to make perfectly spherical cubes?
Is God able to make an immovable rock and then move it?


Is God able to do that which is logically absurd?

A 'no' answer to any of these questions will negate your entire argument.

Your theology is irrational and therefore wrong. You think the Bible teaches this nonsense but it does not. God is a God of order and reason not of disorder and confusion. Indeed, the only reason you can even use reason and logic is specifically because you have been created in the image of the living God whose character is reflected in what we call logic, reason and understanding.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Z Man]

Knight, isn't there a TOL provision to ban people on account of extreme ignorance?

Z Man, and nancy are such candidates. They are simply too idiotic to carry on any type of rational debate. I vote that they be banned so we can carry on with others that have the ability to critically think.

To ban me, or nancy, means that you would get rid of those few on this board who believe in TRUTH. You don't want to do that, do you?

Not to mention, I payed to post on this site. I can dish it out just as much as Knight. It's obvious that you are 'threatened' by our 'doctrine' Novice. That gives me some sort of pleasure knowing that the TRUTH really does make some people angry...

Too bad that person happens to proclaim to be a Christian!

 

[Clete]

The only reason i made the comment is because that would be the only argument that would try to get around the elect being the group of people.

Knight, do you think we are so daft to believe that a group of PEOPLE are not composed of INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE.

This is beginning to get me angry.
Why do you ignore perfectly clear explanations?

You are either being totally nieve or trying to pull the wool over our eyes.

You are a liar and a fool. You know perfectly well that Knight and I both have explained this well enough for my 5 year old daughter to understand. Who needs wool pulled over their eyes when they have them firmly closed shut!

If the elect is a is a specific group of people then it is number of specific individual people who are predestined.

I'm very close to cussing! :madmad:
Prove this stupidity or drop it, now!
You've been given a half dozen examples of exactly how this is not so and you ignore it an I, for one, am not so daft, as you put it, to think that it isn't intentional. Now you will do one of two things. You will prove this last statement or you will drop it. If you repeat this idiotic nonsense once more without substanciation I'm through discussing it (not that you'd give a damn about that).

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Z Man]

This is beginning to get me angry.
Why do you ignore perfectly clear explanations?


You are a liar and a fool. You know perfectly well that Knight and I both have explained this well enough for my 5 year old daughter to understand. Who needs wool pulled over their eyes when they have them firmly closed shut!


I'm very close to cussing! :madmad:
Prove this stupidity or drop it, now!
You've been given a half dozen examples of exactly how this is not so and you ignore it an I, for one, am not so daft, as you put it, to think that it isn't intentional. Now you will do one of two things. You will prove this last statement or you will drop it. If you repeat this idiotic nonsense once more without substanciation I'm through discussing it (not that you'd give a damn about that).

Resting in Him,
Clete

Nice 'Christianly' attitude you got there, 'brother'...

Nancy proved her point long ago HERE but you moron's ignored her, and made this all too confusing for anyone to understand, and then you turn around and call her 'stupid', etc.

 

[novice]

To ban me, or nancy, means that you would get rid of those few on this board who believe in TRUTH. You don't want to do that, do you?

Not to mention, I payed to post on this site. I can dish it out just as much as Knight. It's obvious that you are 'threatened' by our 'doctrine' Novice. That gives me some sort of pleasure knowing that the TRUTH really does make some people angry...

Too bad that person happens to proclaim to be a Christian!

Dude, blame God.

He predestined that I say that.

 

[nancy]

Clete, losing your temper just proves that you cannot substantiate what you claim. You've heard some ambiguos example of this corporate elect argument from somebody and you know it's ambiguous.

What do you want me to do? Pull out a dictionary that defines a group as being composed of individuals?

What is a group if there are no individuals within it?

 

[Z Man]

Dude, blame God.

He predestined that I say that.

You're an idiot.