Does God know the future?

[Nathon Detroit]

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

...who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

Answer the question Freak . . .

Do the individuals that were not pre-chosen have hope for atonement?

 

[Freak]

. e.g. we do not fully understand the Trinity, but we what we do know is reasonable and correct (one God with 3 personal distinctions...we do not know all the details of how this is true).

Exactly. There are some truths in Scripture that is not fully understood. Free will and election is one of them. Scriptures teach free will and God's complete foreknowledge/election.

 

[Freak]

Answer the question Freak . . .

Do the individuals that were not pre-chosen have hope for atonement?

Did I not answer the question? I believe all were chosen to experience salvation but many reject.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Did I not answer the question?

No. Not that I can see.

I believe all were chosen to experience salvation but many reject.

So everyone is elect? Without exception? Is that what you mean?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Exactly. There are some truths in Scripture that is not fully understood. Free will and election is one of them. Scriptures teach free will and God's complete foreknowledge/election.

Corporate election removes any hint of confusion.

Yet....

Individual election gets you in the mess you are in right now. :shocked:

 

[nancy]

There are five degrees of election in Rom 8; they are foreknown, predestined, called, justified and glorified.

These apply to humans not Christ.

 

[godrulz]

Exactly. There are some truths in Scripture that is not fully understood. Free will and election is one of them. Scriptures teach free will and God's complete foreknowledge/election.

Research compatibilism vs incompatibilism. Compatibilism is usually deterministic (free will is compatible with predestination), while incompatibilism seems to be more defensible (genuine free will vs a limited free will is not compatible with deterministic predestination).

You need to clarify what you mean by election. Are you using it like predestination? Decrees? Foreknowledge could be based on predestination, but at the expense of libertarian free will (Calvinism). Predestination could be based on foreknowledge (Arminian), but it still does not resolve problematic issues relating to contingencies/certainties/possibilities/probabilities.

Scripture does teach free will, but it does not teach your version of individual election. Corporate election (which is foreknown vs which individuals will make up the group) would be the first step to getting back on track.

 

[godrulz]

There are five degrees of election in Rom 8; they are foreknown, predestined, called, justified and glorified.

These apply to humans not Christ.

There is a conditional vs causative aspect to this. Not everyone will respond to God's intended call for them. Everyone is invited to repent and trust Him for eternal life. If they do, they become part of the group predestined for life. If they do not respond, they perish. Even if they are justified, it is possible to become an apostate or fall away and not be glorified in the end. Paul is talking about a sequence, but it is not a causal link (your assumption). There is a conditional aspect to salvation...IF....THEN....

 

[Freak]

So everyone is elect? Without exception? Is that what you mean?

God desires all to be saved through the blood of Jesus. Yet, God in His perfect foreknowledge, knew the ones who would deny Him and whom would receive Him! Those who surrendered to Him were elected!

 

[Freak]

You need to clarify what you mean by election. Are you using it like predestination? Decrees? Foreknowledge could be based on predestination, but at the expense of libertarian free will (Calvinism).

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

God foreknew, those whom by free will, surrendered to Him.

 

[Freak]

Even if they are justified, it is possible to become an apostate or fall away and not be glorified in the end. Paul is talking about a sequence, but it is not a causal link (your assumption). There is a conditional aspect to salvation...IF....THEN....

:kookoo: Conditional salvation?

"those he justified, he also glorified."

Secure salvation.

 

[intro2faith]

Freak,

Tell me if I'm on the right track here....

You believe that everyone is elected to be saved, yet only some embrace the opportunity?
And God did not CHOOSE the ones that would be saved, He just knew who would come to Him and who would not?

Am I correct?

 

[Freak]

Freak,

Tell me if I'm on the right track here....

You believe that everyone is elected to be saved, yet only some embrace the opportunity?

I wouldn't use the word "election" but, yes, God desires all to be saved.

And God did not CHOOSE the ones that would be saved, He just knew who would come to Him and who would not?

Am I correct?

That's it!

 

[intro2faith]

Freak,

I know exactly where you're coming from. That is what I believe too. (and for everyone besides Freak who is reading this: NOOO I do NOT believe in the elect!) I just believe that God knows who will ultimately come to Him and who will not. Not that He MADE them choose Him or not, just that He knows their choice.

 

[intro2faith]

Hmm...no one is responding yet...hehe.
Please tell me if you think my view is totally twisted...I don't really want to be twisted!

 

[Freak]

Freak,

I know exactly where you're coming from. That is what I believe too. (and for everyone besides Freak who is reading this: NOOO I do NOT believe in the elect!) I just believe that God knows who will ultimately come to Him and who will not. Not that He MADE them choose Him or not, just that He knows their choice.

:up:

 

[kmoney]

Hmm...no one is responding yet...hehe.
Please tell me if you think my view is totally twisted...I don't really want to be twisted!

I don't think you're twisted but some people will because they don't believe God knows the future like you do.

 

[intro2faith]

I don't think you're twisted but some people will because they don't believe God knows the future like you do.

Do you think He does?

 

[godrulz]

:kookoo: Conditional salvation?

"those he justified, he also glorified."

Secure salvation.

Those who believe and continue to believe will be glorified. Only those in the Son will be saved. If someone renounces Christ in favor of the lie, they are no longer in the Son and will not be glorified. Those who are justified and continue in the faith are different than those who started the race, but dropped out before the end. OSAS is anther can of worms. C.Gordon Olson rejects Calvinism, yet accepts OSAS (I disagree). He exegetes Romans 8 and shows it is not a causal chain (though that would support his view).

 

[intro2faith]

Those who believe and continue to believe will be glorified. Only those in the Son will be saved. If someone renounces Christ in favor of the lie, they are no longer in the Son and will not be glorified. Those who are justified and continue in the faith are different than those who started the race, but dropped out before the end. OSAS is anther can of worms. C.Gordon Olson rejects Calvinism, yet accepts OSAS (I disagree). He exegetes Romans 8 and shows it is not a causal chain (though that would support his view).

Could it be that those who are saved are ALWAYS saved, but those who "renounce" their faith were never truly saved to begin with?