Does God know the future?

[Nathon Detroit]

Knight,

Is that how you uplift people? By calling them stupid? Our words are to be uplifting and edifying. Instead of saying that someone is "stupid" you could say something a little more Godly. That doesn't mean you have to be all "oh, you're right" and suck up to people all the time. It just means that if we're going to be pointing out something bad in another person, we should say it with LOVE. I may be wrong. You may have meant that to sound loving, but it just did not come across that way to me. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I call it like I see it.

Nancy and Z Man are either obviously obfuscating by acting stupid or are actually as stupid as they act here on TOL.

I have told nancy several times now that no one asserts that a group of people is not made up of individuals yet she just keeps on saying it over and over.

Z Man made the claim that I defended an analogy that the body of Christ was like an airplane when no such analogy was made.

Stuff like this is inexcusable, immature and stupid. It is not my goal or objective to play games with numbskulls.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Not to mention, I payed to post on this site. I can dish it out just as much as Knight. It's obvious that you are 'threatened' by our 'doctrine' Novice. That gives me some sort of pleasure knowing that the TRUTH really does make some people angry...

Uh just for clarification . . . being a TOL subscriber is not a "ban shield".

Not that I am planning on banning you or anything.

 

[Poly]

Clete, losing your temper just proves that you cannot substantiate what you claim.

Statements like this are really stupid. People get irritated when they see scripture twisted or when people say false things. Maybe you never have been angry at people who say things that you feel are false but many have so don't say cheap things as Clete getting angry must mean he can't substantiate his claim just to make yourself look good.

 

[novice]

You're an idiot.

Do you deny what I said?

According to you, didn't God predestine the words that I typed?

 

[nancy]

I'm not getting irritated and you guys are twisting Scripture around creating false doctrine as corporate elect and no where in scripture will you see the term "corporate elect."

 

[Clete]

So let me get this straight:

To explain what 'corporate election' means, Clete posts an analogy stating that:

Ephesians talks about us being predestined IN CHRIST. Just as if when you get on a plane bound for Dallas, you were predestined to go to Dallas by virtue of the fact that you got IN THE PLANE. It was the plane (i.e. the group) that was predestined not you personally.

Now clearly, here we see Clete make an analogy between being IN CHRIST and being IN THE PLANE headed for Dallas. Also, Clete says that "the plane (i.e. the group) was predestined". Thus indicating that the plane and the group are the same.

Either you and Clete disagree, or you are just making stuff up as we go along just so you won't look stupid. Which is it?

Z Man,

It is you who looking stupid.
First of all, it is an analogy. It is not a perfect parallelism and so don't get too excited about finding cracks in it (not that I'm conceding any).
More importantly it really doesn't matter which way you take it. I was, in fact, referring to the group in my anaolgy but even if I weren't it still works fine.

Christ has been predestined by the Father to be glorified. The group called the Body of Christ are identified in Christ and are thereby share in that destiny. Jesus is our vehicle - glory is our destination (destiny).

So you've not even found a weakness in the analogy, only another way in which to apply it, perhaps a better one than I had in mind in the first place.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Clete, losing your temper just proves that you cannot substantiate what you claim. You've heard some ambiguos example of this corporate elect argument from somebody and you know it's ambiguous.

You are certifiably stupid.

What do you want me to do? Pull out a dictionary that defines a group as being composed of individuals?

What is a group if there are no individuals within it?

Good bye nancy. I can't say it's been at all fun or even worth while discussing this with you.


Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Freak]

Those who believe and continue to believe will be glorified.

"...those he justified, he also glorified."

Justification is a one time act. If you have been justified you will be glorified. It doesn't mention "if you continue" believe. That's something you added to the text.

 

[intro2faith]

People this is horrible. I cannot see Christ acting this way.

 

[Clete]

Nice 'Christianly' attitude you got there, 'brother'...

Thank you! :thumb:

Nancy proved her point long ago HERE but you moron's ignored her,

You are either not paying attention to the thread or are intentionally lying. I responded to her line by line, point by point. It is she who ignored my responses.

...and made this all too confusing for anyone to understand, and then you turn around and call her 'stupid', etc.

She is stupid or else willfully ignorant. Either way she is a waste of time. And I've made nothing complicated nor have I ever denied that a group either has or will have individuals in it. All I've denied is that it is necessary to know specifically who or how many individuals there will be before making decision about how to work with, through, or for that group.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

Sounds like my kinda theology!

Yeah! Now that's what I'm taking about Knight! Bout time you got something right!

Uh.... I sense trouble here.. partially closed?

I have a question here; one that I think SOTK already brought up, but no one seriously took a look at them.

You state that God is God, and that no one can stop Him and that He can bring an event to pass. My question is this; how can God do such a thing without infringing upon a person's 'freewill'?

This is the eternal 'Open Theists Dilemma'...

He choses to not bring every possible event in the universe to pass. If I want to smoke dope, I can. If God does not want me to, He could strike me dead, but He usually does not. He allows genuine freedom and is not a control freak.

He is omnicompetent and creative enough to bring what He wants to pass. Who can thwart the Second Coming of Christ. He does not have to infringe on free will to do this. I could be driving, sleeping, eating, etc at the moment He returns. It does not matter. God can send judgments against nations by way of natural disasters. Free will is not a factor in this. If He declares judgment, no one will stop it. However, many prophecies are conditional...IF they repent, THEN He will not judge. If they do not repent, THEN He will judge. Any limitation to what God does or does not do is voluntary on His part. He could have made deterministic robots, but He did not. By creating other free moral agents, He introduced pain into His own heart (He was grieved He made man; Jesus wept over Jerusalem). He made it that He does not always have to get His way all the time. Hitler was not necessary for the grand scheme of God's strategy in human history. Israel and the Church have a role. There are delays and setbacks as individuals did not live up to their calling, yet God will ultimately have a people who will rule and reign with Him. A chessmaster does not have to know or control the opponent's moves to win. God wins despite other beings with free agency. Your deterministic view of God is lesser in that He must know or control to bring His global purposes to pass. No one can thwart God's purposes in the end, but that does not mean the rape and murder of a child is God's will or part of His plan.

 

[Clete]

People this is horrible. I cannot see Christ acting this way.

Really? You should ask the Pharisees about that. I don't think they were too pleased with Jesus' attitude toward them. But that's an issue for another thread.

 

[Freak]

What is in it for you to cling to a position that is irrational and unecessary? I don't get it.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete, in all fairness, the universal Body of Jesus Christ has, generally rejected open theism, as do most orthodox Bible scholars. To say our position is "irrational" is alittle over the top.

 

[nancy]

Clete, hmmm... and you already said in a previous post that I came up with the most significant argument against open theism.

You also said to me that if I want to leave and bury my head in the sand that's fine. Well i guess I can say the same to you.

I guess you really can't sbstantiate your posts.

 

[godrulz]

"...those he justified, he also glorified."

Justification is a one time act. If you have been justified you will be glorified. It doesn't mention "if you continue" believe. That's something you added to the text.

The rest of the story is found in a myriad of other texts. Be cognizant of the present continuous verb tense in Greek when looking at words relating to faith/belief, etc. As well, other verses have a conditional element relating to this issue. No one verse has all possible truth. Your proof text, as interpreted, will contradict other verses properly interpreted.

 

[intro2faith]

I call it like I see it.

Nancy and Z Man are either obviously obfuscating by acting stupid or are actually as stupid as they act here on TOL.

I have told nancy several times now that no one asserts that a group of people is not made up of individuals yet she just keeps on saying it over and over.

Z Man made the claim that I defended an analogy that the body of Christ was like an airplane when no such analogy was made.

Stuff like this is inexcusable, immature and stupid. It is not my goal or objective to play games with numbskulls.

Wow. You're a very intelligent man with many good points, but that was not one of them. Anyone could use the excuse of "I call it like I see it" to justify sin. The point is we are to edify people with our words. Not hurt. And if we are going to be saying harsh stuff we better say it with LOVE.

 

[intro2faith]

Really? You should ask the Pharisees about that. I don't they were too pleased with Jesus' attitude toward them. But that's an issue for another thread.

Jesus was not taunting and mocking.

 

[Poly]

Wow. You're a very intelligent man with many good points, but that was not one of them. Anyone could use the excuse of "I call it like I see it" to justify sin. The point is we are to edify people with our words. Not hurt. And if we are going to be saying harsh stuff we better say it with LOVE.

We have enough craziness going on in this thread as it is. Let's not get into another issue where more crazy things like this are said. If you want to start another thread over this subject, feel free to do so.

 

[Freak]

Uh just for clarification . . . being a TOL subscriber is not a "ban shield".

Not that I am planning on banning you or anything.

:think:

 

[Freak]

Clete, losing your temper just proves that you cannot substantiate what you claim. You've heard some ambiguos example of this corporate elect argument from somebody and you know it's ambiguous.

What do you want me to do? Pull out a dictionary that defines a group as being composed of individuals?

What is a group if there are no individuals within it?

That's it :up: