Does God know the future?

[godrulz]

To ban me, or nancy, means that you would get rid of those few on this board who believe in TRUTH. You don't want to do that, do you?

Not to mention, I payed to post on this site. I can dish it out just as much as Knight. It's obvious that you are 'threatened' by our 'doctrine' Novice. That gives me some sort of pleasure knowing that the TRUTH really does make some people angry...

Too bad that person happens to proclaim to be a Christian!

We are not threatened. We are frustrated with your proof texts and inability to see an alternate explanation that is less problematic than yours. You have a preconceived theology based on deductive and erroneous assumptions.

 

[drbrumley]

So, God is unwilling or unable to look through the corridors of time and see the future?

Are you conceding He doesn't?

 

[Clete]

Clete, in all fairness, the universal Body of Jesus Christ has, generally rejected open theism, as do most orthodox Bible scholars. To say our position is "irrational" is alittle over the top.

Irrationality has to do with violating very specific rules of logic not the number of people who agree with or hold to the position. If everyone on the planet beleives the world is flat, does that make it so? Does the fact that they universally believe it make it even possible?

The very simply fact of the matter is, I do not care what everyone else believes. I care about what can be shown to be BOTH Biblical and of sound reason. Anything else is opinion which I am not bound to obey or believe.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

Clete, losing your temper just proves that you cannot substantiate what you claim. You've heard some ambiguos example of this corporate elect argument from somebody and you know it's ambiguous.

What do you want me to do? Pull out a dictionary that defines a group as being composed of individuals?

What is a group if there are no individuals within it?

His reactions to your slowness does not prove he cannot establish his claim. It only proves it is frustrating talking to a brick who cannot grasp the evidence presented. I do not condone name calling or put downs (ad hominem). Let us deal respectfully with truth to build up rather than insult.

 

[godrulz]

Really? You should ask the Pharisees about that. I don't think they were too pleased with Jesus' attitude toward them. But that's an issue for another thread.

This was Jesus dealing with false religious leaders. It is not a justification for being rude with the brethren or average Joe. We are fellow believers here and our mandate is love, unity, acceptance, and forgiveness (without condoning error or ignorance). We are not Jesus who knows the heart, mind, and motives perfectly.

 

[JCAtheist]

JCatheist;

Rom.8: 29-30

Eph.1: 5

DO NOT speak of God's foreknowledge of the elect.



Boy! Now wasn't that productive! Proof texting really works well doesn't it?

I never thought they did, Clete It takes some very crafty cherry picking of verses to allude to the fact that God knows who the compliment of Elect are.. It doesn't say that He knows who they are, only that they will be there.

I asked for scriptural proof that God knows who the elect are, not proof that He knows there will be those that are and will be those that can reach His bar and become part of that group of individuals Whch is what those verses say to me.. and Eph 1:5 should really be put in context with the text right before it.. and who is speaking about what.

You still cannot see that, Nancy?


IN Love and Peace

JCAtheist

 

[Clete]

Jesus was not taunting and mocking.

Yes, He was. You've been trained not to see it, but the man wasn't executed because people liked Him so much.

Read THIS! :readthis:

 

[Z Man]

Time is unidirectional moving from the potential future through the present into the fixed past. The 'eternal now' view and spatial analogy of time (time is not a thing nor is it space) are other wrong assumptions you have not critically thought through. "A Treatise on Time and Space" by J.R. Lucas may help you. There are actually 4 main evangelical views on time and eternity. Timelessness is not coherent for a personal being. An endless duration of time (sequence/succession) is just as 'eternal' (no beginning/no end) and is the common sense view in Scripture (i.e. it is coherent, not pagan philosophy like your Platonic view).

According to Einstein's theory, if God was in 'time', then Jesus could not of been divine. Matter cannot occupy the same space at the same time.

 

[Z Man]

Lewis is wonderful, but this is one analogy from Mere Christianity he did not think through. He adopted it uncritically as the common Anglican view. He got the idea from Augustine, who was great, but wrong on this point. Augustine was influenced by pagan philosophy. Thankfully, the wrong tradition is being challenged in academic circles, giving our views more credibility among non-religious scholars who see the problem with some areas of our theology. Lewis was a communicator for the common man, not a theologian par excellent.

Well aren't you a little pompous. You must know everything! Everyone is wrong but you, and whoever you wish to support, eh?

He also wrongly thought our animals would end up in heaven.

Doesn't the Bible say that Jesus will return on a white horse?

Just a thought...

 

[godrulz]

In Romans 8:30 there is no condition except that you must be justified to experience glorification. You have embraced a lie!! Salvation is not conditional. For we are kept by God's power not by our power.

Homework:

Staying adopted is not condtional in light of Scripture.

Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

Can you cease from being a "child?"

'Born again' is a metaphor about spiritual rebirth. Spiritual birth is not identical to physical birth. A human child cannot be unborn or change his birth father. Salvation is also a love relationship. Why not use the marriage analogy (cf. Eph. 5) were it is evident that a love relationship must be freely entered into and maintained? Reconciliation involves two parties and is not unilateral. Marriage can end in divorce and a severing of the relationship. God is able to save and keep us (Jude 24, 25), but it is not unconditional. If salvation was not conditional, then all would be saved and God would make efvery repent and trust. He is not the only factor in the equation. We can receive or reject Him and our state at time A may differ from time B at the end of our lives.

 

[Agape4Robin]

Are you conceding He doesn't?

Quite the opposite.....He does, and He did.

Did you know that the Passover Lamb as described in Exodus was a picture (prophecy) of Christ?

Did you know that the "Sheaf of First Fruits" was a prophetic picture of the resurrection of Christ and His ascension to the Father, as the "firstfruits" of the coming resurrection of the saints? See Leviticus 23:9-14

There is more....much more and I can expound if you want, but I offer these as evidence that God did indeed look through to the future day of Jesus Christ, from the creation of the world.

 

[Clete]

I never thought they did, Clete It takes some very crafty cherry picking of verses to allude to the fact that God knows who the compliment of Elect are.. It doesn't say that He knows who they are, only that they will be there.

Yeah I know. My post was for Nancy's benefit, not yours. The point being that proof texting means nothing. You can get the Bible to say almost anything you want it to say if not accompanied with sound reason. Every nut job on the planet has used the carefully picked Bible verse to "prove" the rightness of his cause. It is only when the light of God's reason is turned on that such thinly vailed deseption (intentional or otherwise) is exposed for what it is.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Z Man]

Wrong again, I simply allow my faith in the work of Christ to save me.

How come you can 'allow your faith', but other's don't? What's different between you and those who don't know Christ?

BTW, how do you know that you are actually saved anyway?

'Cause Jesus promised. I trust Him.

Let me guess, you got lucky enough to be a part of the "elect", right?
It's too bad that you think only a predetermined set of individuals are saved which in turn causes you not to believe that the blood of Christ has the potential to save any & everyone who trusts in Him.

Do you believe everyone will get into Heaven? If not, then we both agree that not everyone will go to Heaven. The difference between our beliefs is that I believe God saved me, where as you believe you saved yourself.

 

[godrulz]

So, God is unwilling or unable to look through the corridors of time and see the future?

He would if He could, but He cannot so He will not.

Time is not a corridor/thing. You must be getting this from science fiction movies. Time is unidirectional moving into the future through the present into the fixed past. When good looks into the future, He sees what we see...nothing...the movie of reality is still being filmed, but is blank in relation to tomorrow and the next day. Prophecy is a vision of the potential future...it is not the actual events on file somewhere (Revelation). The antichrist is not here yet. The Second Coming and Armageddon have not happened. God knows them as events that will happen, but does not 'see' them in advance since they are not actual or real yet. You are confusing duration with a physical thing.

 

[godrulz]

According to Einstein's theory, if God was in 'time', then Jesus could not of been divine. Matter cannot occupy the same space at the same time.

Theory is not fact. Einstein was wrong about Jesus. Jesus, the God-Man did walk in our space-time. In His preexistence, He had no matter. Jesus did not occupy the same space at the same time. Time is not space, though there is some relation. It is not identical, so careful with your assumptions.

 

[Agape4Robin]

He would if He could, but He cannot so He will not.

Time is not a corridor/thing. You must be getting this from science fiction movies. Time is unidirectional moving into the future through the present into the fixed past. When good looks into the future, He sees what we see...nothing...the movie of reality is still being filmed, but is blank in relation to tomorrow and the next day. Prophecy is a vision of the potential future...it is not the actual events on file somewhere (Revelation). The antichrist is not here yet. The Second Coming and Armageddon have not happened. God knows them as events that will happen, but does not 'see' them in advance since they are not actual or real yet. You are confusing duration with a physical thing.

Really?
Then what do you call prophecy, so accurate as to include details?

 

[godrulz]

Well aren't you a little pompous. You must know everything! Everyone is wrong but you, and whoever you wish to support, eh?

Doesn't the Bible say that Jesus will return on a white horse?

Just a thought...

There will be animals in heaven. Just not my dead cat, millions of rats, thousands of dogs, including my pet. The animals in the Millennium or heaven are not resurrected dead pets! (Jack Van Impe thinks our pets will be in heaven).

I am a student, not a scholar. I am passionate when I know what I believe and why and can see the errors of wrong beliefs. No one person has perfect insight in every area. I am teachable and would change my thinking, as I have done over the years, when the evidence becomes persuasive.

 

[Z Man]

Theory is not fact. Einstein was wrong about Jesus. Jesus, the God-Man did walk in our space-time. In His preexistence, He had no matter. Jesus did not occupy the same space at the same time. Time is not space, though there is some relation. It is not identical, so careful with your assumptions.

Wow Knight! We have a genuis aboard! This guy even says Einstein was wrong! Sheesh.... :hammer:

 

[godrulz]

Really?
Then what do you call prophecy, so accurate as to include details?

Prophecy can be unconditional or conditional, predictive, or declarative. Many prophecies are general and do not include great detail leading up to it. Jonah and Hezekiah are two examples of intended prophecies that were contingent and changed as man changed. The things that are predicted in accurate detail can be brought about by God's intentions and ability. They do not require prescience or foreknowledge. e.g. I could say that I am going to the bank tomorrow. I have the ability to bring this to pass. The fulfillment does not depend on me literally seeing a vision of me actually going to the bank before I did in reality.

 

[Agape4Robin]

Wow Knight! We have a genuis aboard! This guy even says Einstein was wrong! Sheesh.... :hammer:

:chuckle: