Does God know the future?

[Z Man]

Knight,

In the United States, I have certain 'rights'. If my rights are infringed upon, it's against the law. These rights I have guarantee my freedom. If you say that God infringes upon my freedom to make whatever decisions I want, I am just not free anymore. Don't you see the amount of justification your Theology has to use to make free will work? It's just a glaring contradiction.

It likes this: I tell my son that he has the freedom to decorate his room with any color he wants. I place a myriad of different cans of paint on his floor. Each can has a different color of paint. My son chooses freely the red can. Before he begins painting, I go in remove the red can of paint but leave all the others (he, of course, doesn't see me remove it). He then shrugs his shoulders and chooses blue. Before he begins painting again, I go in and remove the blue can. I keep doing this until I get the color down to the one that Ireally want although it appeared to my son that he chose it.

The above analogy is crude although that's basically what you're saying God does to us "free" humans. This isn't free will at all. It may appear to look like free will but it's not. You may as well change the term to "manipulated will".

:BRAVO: Well said!

 

[Agape4Robin]

:BRAVO: Well said!

:thumb:

 

[Freak]

Knight,

In the United States, I have certain 'rights'. If my rights are infringed upon, it's against the law. These rights I have guarantee my freedom. If you say that God infringes upon my freedom to make whatever decisions I want, I am just not free anymore. Don't you see the amount of justification your Theology has to use to make free will work? It's just a glaring contradiction.

It's likes this: I tell my son that he has the freedom to decorate his room with any color he wants. I place a myriad of different cans of paint on his floor. Each can has a different color of paint. My son chooses freely the red can. Before he begins painting, I go in remove the red can of paint but leave all the others (he, of course, doesn't see me remove it). He then shrugs his shoulders and chooses blue. Before he begins painting again, I go in and remove the blue can. I keep doing this until I get the color down to the one that I really want although it appeared to my son that he chose it.

The above analogy is crude although that's basically what you're saying God does to us "free" humans. This isn't free will at all. It may appear to look like free will but it's not. You may as well change the term to "manipulated will".

:thumb:

 

[Emo]

Z Man,

I think what Clete is really feeling is that those of us who do not subscribe to his theological view are not Christians.

First of all, :SOTK:, it's nice to see you back in action, but in Clete's defense, what you have said is untrue. He believes Calvinists are Christians (so do I), perhaps even plenty of Catholics since one of their beliefs is in the death & resurrection of Christ.

Seriously, as a general rule, most of you Open View Theologists show a greater amount of anger and personal attacks when debating this subject. You guys are constantly on the attack. You might as well just get it over with and label us non-believers and that we're going to hell. Seriously, you'll probably feel better!

No, OVers like myself understand truth & logic and simply want to rightly divide the Word with our brothers & sisters in Christ. Just because we differ on our theological views does not mean that we are enemies.


Do you believe this in your heart & mind........

Romans 10:9-10

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This is the Gospel in a nutshell. Agree or disagree?

 

[Z Man]

As a Calvinist, you believe you have no faith until God brings you to life & reveals Himself to you or am I wrong?

I have faith in other things, such as I have faith that when I turn my faucet, water will come out, or when I sit in my chair, it will hold me. But as far as the Bible is concerned, no one is born with faith in God. It must be given to us by His grace (Eph. 2:8-9).

Remember, you falsely believe that faith is something that we can not obtain.

I believe we can obtain faith, but not of ourselves. It's not something we can generate in our own heart. It's a gift given to us by God. It's His grace that saves us; that changes our hearts and opens our eyes to see His attractive glory and mercies. When He does that, THEN we go to Him. His grace is irresistable.

Do you know how long you were dead until God decided to save you?

From the day I was born I was spiritually dead.

 

[Agape4Robin]

First of all, :SOTK:, it's nice to see you back in action, but in Clete's defense, what you have said is untrue. He believes Calvinists are Christians (so do I), perhaps even plenty of Catholics since one of their beliefs is in the death & resurrection of Christ.



No, OVers like myself understand truth & logic and simply want to rightly divide the Word with our brothers & sisters in Christ. Just because we differ on our theological views does not mean that we are enemies.


Do you believe this in your heart & mind........

Romans 10:9-10

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This is the Gospel in a nutshell. Agree or disagree?

Agree......

 

[SOTK]

First of all, :SOTK:, it's nice to see you back in action, but in Clete's defense, what you have said is untrue. He believes Calvinists are Christians (so do I), perhaps even plenty of Catholics since one of their beliefs is in the death & resurrection of Christ.

It may or may not be untrue. I do think, Clete, especially, goes out of his way to label Calvinists as heretical, ignorant, blasphemous, etc. Do you really think it would be a giant leap for him to say "we're going to hell".

Personally, I feel Clete has done nothing to show me that he feels that I am a brother in Christ.

No, OVers like myself understand truth & logic and simply want to rightly divide the Word with our brothers & sisters in Christ. Just because we differ on our theological views does not mean that we are enemies.

Really? So labeling a brother with a different theological belief as a heretic or blasphemer doesn't mean we aren't enemies? Could have fooled me!

Look, I feel Calvinism makes sense to me. I also see it as pretty logical however much you might disagree. You don't see me losing my temper and calling you an ignorant heretic.

Do you believe this in your heart & mind........

Romans 10:9-10

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This is the Gospel in a nutshell. Agree or disagree?

Agree.

 

[godrulz]

:darwinsm:
Are you serious? The test of a prophecy or prophet lies in wether or not it was fulfilled, otherwise, the false prophet was killed. Jesus had to fulfill the prophecies just as they were described. He even said that His will and the Father's will were one and the same, Jesus had no latitude to deviate from it.

The Messianic prophecies were unconditional.

No conservative, credible scholar denies that there are also other conditional prophecies (e.g. Jonah and Hezekiah).

Prophecy can forth tell or foretell. It can be predictive or a pronouncement with a conditional component (e.g. if you repent, I will relent; if you do not repent, I will release wrath...have you not read the OT?).

 

[JCAtheist]

Are you kidding? The whole story of Jesus is about God being in our time. Not to mention the creation, God's forknowledge, and the end times. Scripture is full of references to God's Sovereignty over human's time and how He has shaped our history.

But OUR knowledge of time, how it works, and how it relates to God, is OUR understanding, and there is not a shred of scriptural support for how God does ANYTHING with time.. only that He knows it a whole lot better than we do.

If God is limited by time, He can't see the future.

First off, you would have to show where.. anywhere.. that I say God is limited by time. AND you would also have to NOT have been as righteous as you think you are, otherwise you would have maybe done just a little checking on other posts I have made to see that I, quite like you, have my own idea of how God relates to time. And I believe my thoughts on it require no argument or contradiction in how Gods foreknowledge and 'predesitnation' works. You are PERFECT, right? And have the mind of Christ? And yet you weren't able to see this about me? Sheesh.. perfection isn't all it's cracked up to be now days

If He can't see the future, then most of the Bible is based on God's 'hopes'. That means He 'hopes' that He wins and you'll be saved in the end.

Can you point out anywhere that I have said God does not have an understanding of the future?

Einstein's theory of time and relativity helped create the invention of the atomic bomb, which, as you have duley noted, is done by atomic fission - the splitting of atoms. Fission is the opposite of fusion, which is the combining of atoms together. My point is/was that Einstein's theory has been proven in regards to atomic research. And even so, it's still impossible for Jesus to be God if God exists in time, as godrulz believes.

I think you are putting God in a box to fit your theory.. As far as I'm concerned, the God the Bible teaches *me* about, can move inside/outside/and upside down time if He so chooses.. in or out of it, with or with out it. It is totally irrelevent to me and my walk with Christ, in the sense that it will effect my salvation not one wit to TRY and understand how God does half of what He does.. at ths point. IMHO.

If anything, my only argument with Calvinists, is that they all believe they are part of this elect, even when they are shown by their fruits not to be. I'm not one to say anyone is saved or unsaved.. least of all myself. I tend to like to leave those types of decisions for those who are righteous enough to make them.. and not one of you/us is, no, not one


IN Love and Peace

JCAtheist

 

[Z Man]

SOTK,

I'm truly excited for you! Wasn't it awesome when God revealed the truth of His Word to you? I couldn't get over it! And everytime I read His Word, it makes soooooooo much more sense to me now. And not to mention the awesome, gloriness, and magnificant beauty of His grace in saving us! The moment I realized that I could do nothing to receive salvation, and that it was all of God's doing, I dropped to the floor and cried, 'Lord, why me? Who am I but a sinner?' Truly that day I knew what Amazing Grace really meant...

 

[godrulz]

You believe that God is in our 'time'; time that is continuously flowing. Therefore, if that is true, then there is no way Jesus could've been God, because matter cannot occupy the same space at the same time. The only way Jesus could have been God, and exist in our time, is for God to be in an eternal now realm - outside of our time, which is what I believe.

Einstein may of had a bunch of theories, and some of them may be wrong, but this idea was proven with the invention of the atomic bomb. When matter does occupy the same space at the same time, BOOM! Nice knowing ya...

"In time" is a spatial reference. A timeline is an imperfect analogy. God is not in our time. We are not 'in time'. Time is an aspect of any personal beings experience. We had a beginning, but no end. God has no beginning and no end. Sequence and succession are real for God and us. He can be in more than one place at one time, so He is not limited in the way we are by time/space. Time is not a thing. God experienced 4000 B.C. with everyone else. He will experience 3000 A.D. when it happens. He did not literally experience creation/incarnation/Second Coming timelessly or in an eternal moment. Revelation 1:8 affirms everlasting duration in the being of God, not timeless 'eternal now'.

 

[JCAtheist]

SOTK,

I'm truly excited for you! Wasn't it awesome when God revealed the truth of His Word to you? I couldn't get over it! And everytime I read His Word, it makes soooooooo much more sense to me now. And not to mention the awesome, gloriness, and magnificant beauty of His grace in saving us! The moment I realized that I could do nothing to receive salvation, and that it was all of God's doing, I dropped to the floor and cried, 'Lord, why me? Who am I but a sinner?' Truly that day I knew what Amazing Grace really meant...

Does Gods word have to be revealed to be truth? Or does the Truth God has created stand without anyone even knowing?

L&P

JCAtheist

 

[Agape4Robin]

The Messianic prophecies were unconditional.

No conservative, credible scholar denies that there are also other conditional prophecies (e.g. Jonah and Hezekiah).

Prophecy can forth tell or foretell. It can be predictive or a pronouncement with a conditional component (e.g. if you repent, I will relent; if you do not repent, I will release wrath...have you not read the OT?).

So? How does this refute what I said? Did you read post #800?

 

[Z Man]

But OUR knowledge of time, how it works, and how it relates to God, is OUR understanding, and there is not a shred of scriptural support for how God does ANYTHING with time.. only that He knows it a whole lot better than we do.



First off, you would have to show where.. anywhere.. that I say God is limited by time. AND you would also have to NOT have been as righteous as you think you are, otherwise you would have maybe done just a little checking on other posts I have made to see that I, quite like you, have my own idea of how God relates to time. And I believe my thoughts on it require no argument or contradiction in how Gods foreknowledge and 'predesitnation' works. You are PERFECT, right? And have the mind of Christ? And yet you weren't able to see this about me? Sheesh.. perfection isn't all it's cracked up to be now days



Can you point out anywhere that I have said God does not have an understanding of the future?



I think you are putting God in a box to fit your theory.. As far as I'm concerned, the God the Bible teaches *me* about, can move inside/outside/and upside down time if He so chooses.. in or out of it, with or with out it. It is totally irrelevent to me and my walk with Christ, in the sense that it will effect my salvation not one wit to TRY and understand how God does half of what He does.. at ths point. IMHO.

I never meant to imply that you believed God was limited by time. I was merely making a point to Godrulz.

If anything, my only argument with Calvinists, is that they all believe they are part of this elect, even when they are shown by their fruits not to be. I'm not one to say anyone is saved or unsaved.. least of all myself. I tend to like to leave those types of decisions for those who are righteous enough to make them.. and not one of you/us is, no, not one

Your hesitation to declare yourself 'saved' worries me. To me, it shows that you lack the faith in the hope of Christ's promise that if we believe in Him, we shall be saved. Do you believe in Him? Then why doubt?

 

[SOTK]

SOTK,

I'm truly excited for you! Wasn't it awesome when God revealed the truth of His Word to you? I couldn't get over it! And everytime I read His Word, it makes soooooooo much more sense to me now. And not to mention the awesome, gloriness, and magnificant beauty of His grace in saving us! The moment I realized that I could do nothing to receive salvation, and that it was all of God's doing, I dropped to the floor and cried, 'Lord, why me? Who am I but a sinner?' Truly that day I knew what Amazing Grace really meant...

:thumb:

Yes, it was awesome! I had a similar experience!

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Woah, time out about Clete--

I know from our time together on a really focused debate, when we disagreed about a lot of things, that there is a limit to how far he'll go. Really people, there were positive reps and brotherly PMs going back and forth during our 1on1. I always felt that he seperated me from my doctrine.

 

[JCAtheist]

I never meant to imply that you believed God was limited by time. I was merely making a point to Godrulz.

Fair enough

Your hesitation to declare yourself 'saved' worries me. To me, it shows that you lack the faith in the hope of Christ's promise that if we believe in Him, we shall be saved. Do you believe in Him? Then why doubt?

You shouldn't let it worry you. There are enough warnings in Gods guide about falling away and stumbling etc., IMHO. And also about certain things that can still effect us while in this mortal body. The armor of Christ protects you from without.. not from within. Or do you believe that from the moment you make the 'elect' you are now invulnerable completely to your own self? Christ will do what He can to keep you, but you STILL have free will, and STILL have the capability to sin. I don't happen to believe we are immune from ourselves, and even at the last minute can totally mess up our salvation. Christs promises are for what He can and will do for us, and not what we will do to ourselves.

It is also partially because the Bible doesn't ONLY talk about the elect.. it talks about others too:


Luk 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luk 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
Luk 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.


2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever. Amen.


Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


It seems to me that there are those who will believe they have it right, but don't. And much like who are the elect, God is silent here as to who these might be. Are you so sure that you have not been misled? As I said, I live in faith and hope.. not in absolutes.


Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.


Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.


It even seems to me that Paul here says to be patient and wait for 'election', and also talks about 'works' and 'faith'.. And by the way, to have an absolute about your salvation denies faith and hope. I don't have faith that gravity will keep me on the planet. I take it as fact, and forget it. Is that how being one of the Elect works?


1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
1Th 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.


Why speak of faith and hope, if all that is needed is the simple revelation you say changed you and made you realise you are one of these 'elect'?


1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:


Now, while I do not disagree with there being an 'elect', I disagree with the Calvanist view that they know who is and who isn't, when I'm not even sure God knows for sure. And if you had any time (ironic huh ) to review some of what I have written before, you would see that I believe God both knows and does not know the Future, both at the same time! How clever is that! And when you see how I put it, you might understand how I can say that and not be contrary. Apologetics at work

As I say, there is enough warnngs in the overall picture the Bible gives me, to keep my own salvation to the limit of faith and hope, and not an absolute. If you don't see it that way, it doesn't make me right and you wrong, or visa versa. God and the Spirit reveals to each of us what we need as we need it.. and right now, I don't need such a pig headed pride in myself


IN Love and Peace

JCAtheist

 

[godrulz]

Wow. POTD!!!! Spiritual birth is not identical to physical birth.

Where do you come up with this stuff? Your years of studying Scripture has made you brillant!

When we receive Jesus Christ (John 1:12) we are therefore adopted into God's family. The question I asked of you is this: Can you become unadopted, in light of Scripture? Yes or no, will do!

You open theists must be proud to have a guy on your side that believes salvation is condtional. :LoJo:

The Open Theists here do not agree with me (Enyart). Tens of millions of Arminian believers through the centuries believe as I do (conditional vs unconditional/OSAS eternal security). John Wesley is one prominent example. If you are Angican, you probably are more Calvinistic (Whitefield; Edwards).

Where do I come up with this stuff? I do not sleep for days, I do not eat or drink, and I smoke pot

 

[godrulz]

I Peter 2:9 "But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God...

He is addressing those who are elect because they believed. A chosen people is collective primarily (corporate). The images for the Church are corporate, not individualistic. There is no explicit verse that would suggest an individual is chosen for heaven or hell before they are born. Those who rejected Peter's gospel were not heirs to the promises of those who are elect. God raised up a group of believers, but He did not decree who would be in it. All who believe will join the rest of the group. The group is predestined to be conformed to Christ. Once one is in Christ, that individual is to be conformed to His image. The only thing keeping someone from becoming a child of God is that they are not willing to receive/believe (Jn. 1:12, 3:16, 36; I John 5:11-13).

 

[Mr. Coffee]

JCA,

Even for a Calvinist (at least this one) assurance is not without tension. In this life we have to make our calling and election sure, but God deserves praise and thanks as our Savior NOW. It wouldn't do to postpone the gratitude we feel, and there's no holding back the joy of knowing Him as the Savior. The Lord must be glorified for giving his life.

As for "knowing" who's in and who's out, I know hundreds of Calvinists, and we just don't give up on people. As for saying that people are "in", that's standard Biblical practice (Heb. 6:9-10, and places where Paul tells readers that they are elect). Even then we don't claim that we really really know.