Does God know the future?

[Agape4Robin]

Prophecy can be unconditional or conditional, predictive, or declarative. Many prophecies are general and do not include great detail leading up to it. Jonah and Hezekiah are two examples of intended prophecies that were contingent and changed as man changed. The things that are predicted in accurate detail can be brought about by God's intentions and ability. They do not require prescience or foreknowledge. e.g. I could say that I am going to the bank tomorrow. I have the ability to bring this to pass. The fulfillment does not depend on me literally seeing a vision of me actually going to the bank before I did in reality.

See my reply to doc in #771....................

 

[Z Man]

Jesus did not occupy the same space at the same time.

Well, according to your views about 'time' and God, He did, which, is impossible.

 

[godrulz]

Wow Knight! We have a genuis aboard! This guy even says Einstein was wrong! Sheesh.... :hammer:

Neither you nor I understand the implications or details of Special and General Relativity. Even Einstein was not dogmatic about everything. He was still looking for a unifying theory. Steven Hawking recently recanted one of his long standing views about black holes. Einstein was correct about many things, but you are misapplying his theories beyond their scope. Relativity is a different issue than the very nature of the eternal God's relationship to time and what eternity means. He is talking about space travel, trains, etc., not biblical revelation on time vs eternity.

 

[Agape4Robin]

Prophecy can be unconditional or conditional, predictive, or declarative. Many prophecies are general and do not include great detail leading up to it. Jonah and Hezekiah are two examples of intended prophecies that were contingent and changed as man changed. The things that are predicted in accurate detail can be brought about by God's intentions and ability. They do not require prescience or foreknowledge. e.g. I could say that I am going to the bank tomorrow. I have the ability to bring this to pass. The fulfillment does not depend on me literally seeing a vision of me actually going to the bank before I did in reality.

BTW......comparing your finite knowledge with God's infinite knowledge as examples of truth is laughable.

 

[Clete]

Quite the opposite.....He does, and He did.

Did you know that the Passover Lamb as described in Exodus was a picture (prophecy) of Christ?

Did you know that the "Sheaf of First Fruits" was a prophetic picture of the resurrection of Christ and His ascension to the Father, as the "firstfruits" of the coming resurrection of the saints? See Leviticus 23:9-14

There is more....much more and I can expound if you want, but I offer these as evidence that God did indeed look through to the future day of Jesus Christ, from the creation of the world.

Such prophecy does not prove that God peaked into the future. It is not necessary for Christ to have died in the exact manner in which He did in order to fulfill Scripture. These prophetic Scriptures are vague enough in their details that they could have been fulfilled in a thousand different ways. You cannot tell by simply reading the Exodus passage that it is even a prophecy and so while Christ would certainly have fulfilled the imagery used in the feasts He could have done so in many ways other than He did. The point being that fulfilled prophecy does not prove that God exists outside of time or that He knows the future exhaustively. In fact, it is unfulfilled prophecy that proves otherwise.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

Well, according to your views about 'time' and God, He did, which, is impossible.

Huh? You lost me...my brain is overheating...not to mention the keyboard...How did Jesus do this? I have not heard this line of thinking before. I am sure there is a way to clarify it from an Open View perspective.

 

[Clete]

Wow Knight! We have a genuis aboard! This guy even says Einstein was wrong! Sheesh.... :hammer:

Einstein had better have been wrong on a great many things or we are all still in our sins.

 

[godrulz]

BTW......comparing your finite knowledge with God's infinite knowledge as examples of truth is laughable.

Excuse me? God's knowledge is infinite. He knows all that is logically possible to know. My knowledge is a drop in the bucket and finite. God sees a bird fall at the same time I do. This knowledge is the same for us if I can see the bird. If the bird falls in Africa, God knows, but I do not. There are similarities and differences in our knowledge. God can tell the difference between actual and possible. So can we. There is an inherent difference between past/present/future (Revelation 1:8 tensed expressions about God). This is real for us and God. Creation, incarnation, Second Coming happen in sequence. Jettison 'eternal now timelessness' and you will get it.

 

[Agape4Robin]

Such prophecy does not prove that God peaked into the future. It is not necessary for Christ to have died in the exact manner in which He did in order to fulfill Scripture. These prophetic Scriptures are vague enough in their details that they could have been fulfilled in a thousand different ways. You cannot tell by simply reading the Exodus passage that it even a prophecy and so while Christ would certainly have fulfilled the imagery used in the feasts He could have done so in many ways other than He did. The point being that fulfilled prophecy does not prove that God exists outside of time or that He knows the future exhaustively. In fact, it is unfulfilled prophecy that proves otherwise.

Resting in Him,
Clete

:darwinsm:
Are you serious? The test of a prophecy or prophet lies in wether or not it was fulfilled, otherwise, the false prophet was killed. Jesus had to fulfill the prophecies just as they were described. He even said that His will and the Father's will were one and the same, Jesus had no latitude to deviate from it.

 

[Z Man]

Huh? You lost me...my brain is overheating...not to mention the keyboard...How did Jesus do this? I have not heard this line of thinking before. I am sure there is a way to clarify it from an Open View perspective.

You believe that God is in our 'time'; time that is continuously flowing. Therefore, if that is true, then there is no way Jesus could've been God, because matter cannot occupy the same space at the same time. The only way Jesus could have been God, and exist in our time, is for God to be in an eternal now realm - outside of our time, which is what I believe.

Einstein may of had a bunch of theories, and some of them may be wrong, but this idea was proven with the invention of the atomic bomb. When matter does occupy the same space at the same time, BOOM! Nice knowing ya...

 

[Agape4Robin]

You believe that God is in our 'time'; time that is continuously flowing. Therefore, if that is true, then there is no way Jesus could've been God, because matter cannot occupy the same space at the same time. The only way Jesus could have been God, and exist in our time, is for God to be in an eternal now realm - outside of our time, which is what I believe.

Einstein may of had a bunch of theories, and some of them may be wrong, but this idea was proven with the invention of the atomic bomb. When matter does occupy the same space at the same time, BOOM! Nice knowing ya...

You must spread around more reputation before giving it to z-man again......... :sozo2:

 

[JCAtheist]

You must spread around more reputation before giving it to z-man again......... :sozo2:

Rep for talking and thinking with mans understanding.. and without any scriptural support. I guess it's your rep to share

Don't see much about God being in or out of time in Scripture... nor is it a salvational issue. And somehow, I think it also misunderstands what happens when an atomic bomb 'explodes', or the processes therein. I could be way off base, but the atomic bomb functions by tearing an atom apart.. not by doing the impossible and putting two things in the same place so they go bang..

Maybe that's why some reps seem so skewwed around here

IN Love and Peace

JCAtheist

 

[SOTK]

Nice 'Christianly' attitude you got there, 'brother'...

Nancy proved her point long ago HERE but you moron's ignored her, and made this all too confusing for anyone to understand, and then you turn around and call her 'stupid', etc.

Z Man,

I think what Clete is really feeling is that those of us who do not subscribe to his theological view are not Christians. He's reluctant to just come out and say this so it's tearing him up inside.

Seriously, as a general rule, most of you Open View Theologists show a greater amount of anger and personal attacks when debating this subject. You guys are constantly on the attack. You might as well just get it over with and label us non-believers and that we're going to hell. Seriously, you'll probably feel better!

I think if Clete had it his way Clavinists would be burnt alive on the stake!

 

[Freak]

Irrationality has to do with violating very specific rules of logic not the number of people who agree with or hold to the position.

The same believers that embrace the essentials reject open theism. Large groups of believers have militated against open theism and it would be over the top to consider all these believers as being irrational.

I care about what can be shown to be BOTH Biblical and of sound reason. Anything else is opinion which I am not bound to obey or believe.

Resting in Him,
Clete

And the group that defend the triune nature of God, the inerrancy of Scripture, the deity of Christ, also rejects open theism. Because, in light of Scripture, open theism is borderline heresy.

 

[Emo]

How come you can 'allow your faith', but other's don't?

As a Calvinist, you believe you have no faith until God brings you to life & reveals Himself to you or am I wrong? Remember, you falsely believe that faith is something that we can not obtain. Do you know how long you were dead until God decided to save you?

Let me share with you the Biblical definition of faith:

• Hbr 11:1
  Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

What's different between you and those who don't know Christ?

I trust Him.

Same here, we actually agree on something.

Do you believe everyone will get into Heaven?

Once again, of course not, even though He desires all men to be saved.

• 1 Timothy 2
  
  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time

The difference between our beliefs is that I believe God saved me, where as you believe you saved yourself.

Please, don't lie, here's what I said earlier today....

Lots of people think that Jesus is or was not God and do not think that He died for our sins & was resurrected, so there really is nothing to look forward to (heaven) & are simply satisfied with their ignorant thoughts of an earthy grave after death & that's the end of it. Others are foolish and selfish enough to actually think they can save themselves from eternal damnation. :doh:

 

[Freak]

Z Man,

I think what Clete is really feeling is that those of us who do not subscribe to his theological view are not Christians.

That would be sad. Clete, is that the case? Surely you don't consider open theism has a benchmark for orthodoxy.

My feeling is he finds much of his identity in this doctrine.

Seriously, as a general rule, most of you Open View Theologists show a greater amount of anger and personal attacks when debating this subject.

Notice that those subscribing to open theism find identity in this open theism while the rest of us merely describe ourselves as believers in Jesus Christ. Very interesting!

You guys are constantly on the attack. You might as well just get it over with and label us non-believers and that we're going to hell. Seriously, you'll probably feel better!

You're going to be in trouble..... :chuckle:

 

[Freak]

Spiritual birth is not identical to physical birth.

Wow. POTD!!!! Spiritual birth is not identical to physical birth.

Where do you come up with this stuff? Your years of studying Scripture has made you brillant!

We can receive or reject Him and our state at time A may differ from time B at the end of our lives.

When we receive Jesus Christ (John 1:12) we are therefore adopted into God's family. The question I asked of you is this: Can you become unadopted, in light of Scripture? Yes or no, will do!

You open theists must be proud to have a guy on your side that believes salvation is condtional. :LoJo:

 

[SOTK]

Infringing upon a will does not remove it.

Look what God went through with Jonah.

God put Jonah in a fish for three days in an attempt to get Jonah's will to conform to God's will. None of this removed Jonah's will! Influencing a person is not the same at all as controlling a person.

This is all really basic stuff.

Knight,

In the United States, I have certain 'rights'. If my rights are infringed upon, it's against the law. These rights I have guarantee my freedom. If you say that God infringes upon my freedom to make whatever decisions I want, I am just not free anymore. Don't you see the amount of justification your Theology has to use to make free will work? It's just a glaring contradiction.

It's likes this: I tell my son that he has the freedom to decorate his room with any color he wants. I place a myriad of different cans of paint on his floor. Each can has a different color of paint. My son chooses freely the red can. Before he begins painting, I go in remove the red can of paint but leave all the others (he, of course, doesn't see me remove it). He then shrugs his shoulders and chooses blue. Before he begins painting again, I go in and remove the blue can. I keep doing this until I get the color down to the one that I really want although it appeared to my son that he chose it.

The above analogy is crude although that's basically what you're saying God does to us "free" humans. This isn't free will at all. It may appear to look like free will but it's not. You may as well change the term to "manipulated will".

 

[Z Man]

Rep for talking and thinking with mans understanding.. and without any scriptural support. I guess it's your rep to share

Don't see much about God being in or out of time in Scripture...

Are you kidding? The whole story of Jesus is about God being in our time. Not to mention the creation, God's forknowledge, and the end times. Scripture is full of references to God's Sovereignty over human's time and how He has shaped our history.

nor is it a salvational issue.

If God is limited by time, He can't see the future. If He can't see the future, then most of the Bible is based on God's 'hopes'. That means He 'hopes' that He wins and you'll be saved in the end.

And somehow, I think it also misunderstands what happens when an atomic bomb 'explodes', or the processes therein. I could be way off base, but the atomic bomb functions by tearing an atom apart.. not by doing the impossible and putting two things in the same place so they go bang..

Einstein's theory of time and relativity helped create the invention of the atomic bomb, which, as you have duley noted, is done by atomic fission - the splitting of atoms. Fission is the opposite of fusion, which is the combining of atoms together. My point is/was that Einstein's theory has been proven in regards to atomic research. And even so, it's still impossible for Jesus to be God if God exists in time, as godrulz believes.

 

[Agape4Robin]

Clete said......

Originally Posted by Clete

Such prophecy does not prove that God peaked into the future. It is not necessary for Christ to have died in the exact manner in which He did in order to fulfill Scripture. These prophetic Scriptures are vague enough in their details that they could have been fulfilled in a thousand different ways. You cannot tell by simply reading the Exodus passage that it even a prophecy and so while Christ would certainly have fulfilled the imagery used in the feasts He could have done so in many ways other than He did. The point being that fulfilled prophecy does not prove that God exists outside of time or that He knows the future exhaustively. In fact, it is unfulfilled prophecy that proves otherwise.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I said.............

:darwinsm:
Are you serious? The test of a prophecy or prophet lies in wether or not it was fulfilled, otherwise, the false prophet was killed. Jesus had to fulfill the prophecies just as they were described. He even said that His will and the Father's will were one and the same, Jesus had no latitude to deviate from it.

Well? :think: