Does God know the future?

[godrulz]

JCA,

Even for a Calvinist (at least this one) assurance is not without tension. In this life we have to make our calling and election sure, but God deserves praise and thanks as our Savior NOW. It wouldn't do to postpone the gratitude we feel, and there's no holding back the joy of knowing Him as the Savior. The Lord must be glorified for giving his life.

As for "knowing" who's in and who's out, I know hundreds of Calvinists, and we just don't give up on people. As for saying that people are "in", that's standard Biblical practice (Heb. 6:9-10, and places where Paul tells readers that they are elect). Even then we don't claim that we really really know.

This reminds me of the tension in the Watchtower, where only 144,000 have a heavenly hope. It is hard for them to know who is part of that group.

The Gospel is preached impartially to all men to persuade and convict them of the need to repent and trust Christ. It slanders the love of God to think that He knows there are people who cannot respond because He did not 'elect them'. They do not respond because of the hardness of their heart, not because God does not want to save them since He can if He wants to. By limiting the atonement, you are limiting the love of God. This view must be rejected as we call all men to repent and obey.

John 3:16 should not be edited to match a preconceived theology with Augustinian roots to match subjective experiences.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Your response was a non sequitur, godrulz. You need to simmer down.

 

[SOTK]

Woah, time out about Clete--

I know from our time together on a really focused debate, when we disagreed about a lot of things, that there is a limit to how far he'll go. Really people, there were positive reps and brotherly PMs going back and forth during our 1on1. I always felt that he seperated me from my doctrine.

Mr. Coffee,

I actually felt that you were the one who seperated him from his doctrine. You never once called his theology heretical or blasphemous nor implied that he exhibited either of those traits yet he did do that to you. If you go back and read it, it's there.

I agree that Clete can be pleasant enough, but when he really get's going on his soap box about this difficult debate, he will let loose with the ugly statements.

I am not angry about this, believe me. I am making what I think is a pretty clear observation. Clete comes really close to coming out and saying that Calvinists aren't Christians.

 

[godrulz]

Your response was a non sequitur, godrulz. You need to simmer down.

I know it is not a direct link, but a mere observation of a similarity. The WT is false religion. Your views are not part of false religion.

God alone knows those who are His. My objection is to think God is partial and arbitrary, and that His death was limited in effect or scope, and that His love is limited.

 

[JCAtheist]

JCA,

Even for a Calvinist (at least this one) assurance is not without tension. In this life we have to make our calling and election sure, but God deserves praise and thanks as our Savior NOW. It wouldn't do to postpone the gratitude we feel, and there's no holding back the joy of knowing Him as the Savior. The Lord must be glorified for giving his life.

No problem Mr Coffee, and thanks for the thoughtful response. In truth I do give praise and joy to God and Christ for even giving the chance for people to become 'elect'. It is worth rejoicing even if I don't make the grade myself. I can be happy for those that do.

And I share that Joy in rl with rl people.. here on a Forum, I have no real tool for discernment to make righteous jusdgements. 2 dimensional glyphs do not convey intent or true understanding of the poster.. On such forums, I may even ask questions and seek things I feel I already have answers for, and may sometimes forget that there is edification to be done as well. I will endveor to share the joy that I have here, as well as I do elswhere in rl.

I also appreciate the honesty of where you place yourself on this issue

As for "knowing" who's in and who's out, I know hundreds of Calvinists, and we just don't give up on people. As for saying that people are "in", that's standard Biblical practice (Heb. 6:9-10, and places where Paul tells readers that they are elect). Even then we don't claim that we really really know.

I would have to say then, Mr. Coffee, that you are the most unusual Calvinist I have come across.. And I don't mean that as a slight at all. If I may, I will have to call you a refreshing cup of Mr. Coffee. (alright, maybe attempting too much 'joy' there). Most I have come across DO claim they really really know.. maybe it is those that have given it such a bad name, IMHO.


IN Love and Peace

JCAtheist

 

[intro2faith]

Does Gods word have to be revealed to be truth? Or does the Truth God has created stand without anyone even knowing?

L&P

JCAtheist

Z Man wasn't saying that the Word wasn't true until it was revealed to him. He was just saying it WAS revealed to him.

 

[Clete]

:darwinsm:
Are you serious? The test of a prophecy or prophet lies in wether or not it was fulfilled, otherwise, the false prophet was killed. Jesus had to fulfill the prophecies just as they were described. He even said that His will and the Father's will were one and the same, Jesus had no latitude to deviate from it.

Yes I'm serious and I never suggested that Jesus wouldn't have fulfilled them just as they were described. They are not describing events in great detail though and so had God fulfilled such prophecy in an entirely different way, they would still have been fulfilled and you would be here arguing that Jesus could not have died on a cross. As I said, you cannot simply read the passages describing the feasts of Israel and know that they are prophecies. God could have chosen not to fulfill them at all and you would not be here objecting to Christianity based on unfufilled prophecy. The reason that is true is because the feast were not explicitly given as prophecy. When Christ did the things He did He wasn't fulfilling prophecy so much as He was fulfilling Scripture, which is similar but not exactly the same thing.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Einstein may of had a bunch of theories, and some of them may be wrong, but this idea was proven with the invention of the atomic bomb. When matter does occupy the same space at the same time, BOOM! Nice knowing ya...

This is laughable. Atomic explosions have nothing to do with causing to pieces of matter to occupy the same space at the same time. NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH IT WHATSOEVER.

:chuckle:

And further more, your argument about Jesus not being able to be God because He couldn't accupy the same space and the same time as the Father demonstrates that you believe in ploytheism for one thing and secondly demonstrates that you don't have a fat clue what you are talking about.
First of all Jesus was God and so God can occupy His own space if He decides to take physicl form.
Secondly, assuming for the sake of argument that your premise is correct, the Father is not only not physical, He is not natural and so such physical limitations do not and cannot be applied to Him.
You're argument is flawed theologically, scientifically and logically. You might try to put a bit more effort into thinking things through before spouting off the first thing that pops into your head.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[drbrumley]

I will quote Bob Hill on this issue.

Many theologians say that God determines everything. But is this right? The answer is, No!! We find that God determines some things in the Bible, but He does not determine all things.

For instance, Job was completely ignorant of the conflict between God and Satan. Job was blind to the thought that Satan was counting on fatalism as his most potent weapon. Fatalism is a paralyzing problem that has saturated Christianity with devastating results. It has infected many Christians with the complacency of whatever they do, God did it and it could be no different.

Satan wanted Job to think of God as a fiend and deny Him. Job didn’t have much, if any, of God’s word. He didn’t know what God’s will was.

What is God’s will? I believe we can break God’s will down into 3 scriptural categories. His intentional will (thelayma), His circumstantial will (thelayma), and His ultimate, or determinate will or counsel (boulay).

When we look at His intentional will, we see that we were created for His will (pleasure). Rev 4:11 “You are worthy, O Lord, To receive glory and honor and power; For You created all things, And by Your will they exist and were created [kai dia to thelayma sou aysan kai ektisthaysan].”

Next, He wants us all to love Him. Mk 12:30,31 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. This is the first commandment. 31 And the second, like it, is this: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these.
1 Co 16:22 If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed. O Lord, come!

He wills us all to love one another. John 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

1 Th 4:9,10 But concerning brotherly love you have no need that I should write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another; 10 and indeed you do so toward all the brethren who are in all Macedonia. But we urge you, brethren, that you increase more and more.

He wills all to be saved. 1 Tim 2:4 “who wills all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” Because man totally rebelled against God, in order to receive salvation, man must believe God and do what He says for salvation.
Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Mat 12:50 “For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”
Heb 10:36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise.

For us in this dispensation of grace, His will is found in Acts 16:31, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.

We also see His will is that we be holy.
1 Th 4:3-8 “For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified. 7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness. 8 Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.” I have not met one Christian who lives a totally sanctified life, living totally for God.

His will is that we work out our salvation. Phi 2:12-13 “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.”

However, His will can be thwarted by us just as Israel thwarted His will for them as recorded in Psa 78:40,41 How often they [Israel] provoked Him in the wilderness and grieved Him in the desert! 41 Yes, again and again they tempted God and limited the Holy One of Israel.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[drbrumley]

When Isaiah told Israel in Isa 5:3,4a, “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard. 4 What more could have been done to My vineyard that I have not done in it?

If God were a God who determined everything that would come to pass, this would be nonsense. But it shows God’s passion for His people. They were free-will beings and rejected God’s desire for them.

Isa 5:4b Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes?
If God did know the whole future and predestined everything that happens, according to strong determinists, even though the Bible does not say He does that, He would not say “when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes?”

Isa 5:5-7 shows that Israel did not do what God wanted them to do. He could have predestined them to do it, but He didn’t. If He did predestine everything, He wouldn’t have said this: Isa 5:5-7 “And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard: I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned; And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down. 6 I will lay it waste; It shall not be pruned or dug, But there shall come up briers and thorns. I will also command the clouds That they rain no rain on it.” 7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah are His pleasant plant. He looked for justice, but behold, oppression; For righteousness, but behold, a cry for help.

 

[Clete]

Z Man,

I think what Clete is really feeling is that those of us who do not subscribe to his theological view are not Christians. He's reluctant to just come out and say this so it's tearing him up inside.

You're a fool, by definition. You do not know me, nor do you care to know me. You instead wish to make friends with people by maligning the character of people you know nothing about. What a jackass!

Seriously, as a general rule, most of you Open View Theologists show a greater amount of anger and personal attacks when debating this subject.

Hypocritical idiot! I get pissed off because people intentionally waste my time and I tell them that they are stupid when they say legitimately stupid things. You on the other hand sit there and make judgments about my motives which you could not possibly have one single fat clue about and then pretend to be pious enough to sit there and tell me that we attack people personally without cause and think you've got me pegged. Unbeleivable! I absolutely would ban you if I had the authority to do so for pulling sort of hypocritical crap!

You guys are constantly on the attack. You might as well just get it over with and label us non-believers and that we're going to hell. Seriously, you'll probably feel better!

Nobody has ever even suggested that you or Zman or any other idiot Calvinist on this board wasn't saved. Your theology is revolting and blasphemous, and you better bet you last thin dime that I am on the attack against it. But I bend by butt over backward attempting every single thing I can think of to draw people out and to get them to make substantive and even complex arguments so that this forum will be interesting and engaging not only for me but for those here who are just reading and learning something new. I devote a very great deal of time and effort into making sure that my responses are substantive and important and yes I get pretty angry when people waste my time with stupidity and unresponsive nonsense. And at times I've very definitely gotten too angry and when I have I've backed off and apologized when appropriate but it sure fire isn't your place to say a word to me about what my motivations are.

I think if Clete had it his way Clavinists would be burnt alive on the stake!

I no longer care what you think. If you think you can demonstrate that I am wrong on any point of theology, any point at all, then show me; engage me in a real debate where you have to actually demonstrate that you know what you're talking about. Otherwise you can stick what you think right where the sun don't shine.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[SOTK]

:bannana:

Thanks for proving my point(s) for all to see!

:thumb:

 

[Clete]

The same believers that embrace the essentials reject open theism. Large groups of believers have militated against open theism and it would be over the top to consider all these believers as being irrational.

This is the millions of people can't be wrong fallacy.

Yes they can be wrong Freak. Every single last one of them can be wrong. There are hundreds of millions of Hindus in the world. Would it be over the top to say that they we all wrong?

And the group that defend the triune nature of God, the inerrancy of Scripture, the deity of Christ, also rejects open theism.

So what? The Catholics beleived in the Trinity and the inerrancy of Scripture and the deity of Christ. Does this mean that Luther was wrong because he was a tiny minority? Would you make these same arguments against the reformers? Why not?

Because, in light of Scripture, open theism is borderline heresy.

Saying it doesn't make it so Freak. I can and have defended my beleifs with Scripture and answered ever substantive Biblical objection that has come my way. I've done it almost to the point of being nausiated with it. You're choosing to ignore it doesn't mean it hasn't been done.

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. Be careful using the "H" word ('heresy', not homo) around SOTK. He's libal to jump to the conclusion that you believe that everyone who disagrees with you must not be saved.

 

[drbrumley]

Clete,

Just a word of encouragement brother.I know it is a long fight to preach the good news of God, but be steadfast.

 

[intro2faith]

You're a fool, by definition. You do not know me, nor do you care to know me. You instead wish to make friends with people by maligning the character of people you know nothing about. What a jackass!


Hypocritical idiot! I get pissed off because people intentionally waste my time and I tell them that they are stupid when they say legitimately stupid things. You on the other hand sit there and make judgments about my motives which you could not possibly have one single fat clue about and then pretend to be pious enough to sit there and tell me that we attack people personally without cause and think you've got me pegged. Unbeleivable! I absolutely would ban you if I had the authority to do so for pulling sort of hypocritical crap!


Nobody has ever even suggested that you or Zman or any other idiot Calvinist on this board wasn't saved. Your theology is revolting and blasphemous, and you better bet you last thin dime that I am on the attack against it. But I bend by butt over backward attempting every single thing I can think of to draw people out and to get them to make substantive and even complex arguments so that this forum will be interesting and engaging not only for me but for those here who are just reading and learning something new. I devote a very great deal of time and effort into making sure that my responses are substantive and important and yes I get pretty angry when people waste my time with stupidity and unresponsive nonsense. And at times I've very definitely gotten too angry and when I have I've backed off and apologized when appropriate but it sure fire isn't your place to say a word to me about what my motivations are.


I no longer care what you think. If you think you can demonstrate that I am wrong on any point of theology, any point at all, then show me; engage me in a real debate where you have to actually demonstrate that you know what you're talking about. Otherwise you can stick what you think right where the sun don't shine.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Those bolded things don't seem to be what Christ would say...

This isn't neccesarily from this certain post...but I was just struck again by how people almost ALWAYS think they and they alone are right and anyone who disagrees with them are idiots. Oye vay. People can be strange...

 

[drbrumley]

Those bolded things don't seem to be what Christ would say...

This isn't neccesarily from this certain post...but I was just struck again by how people almost ALWAYS think they and they alone are right and anyone who disagrees with them are idiots. Oye vay. People can be strange...

Whats idiotic Intro is when presented with the biblical evidence, you determinists just pass it off as it don't exist. Thats what is idiotic.Like what Freak has mentioned, millions dont believe on open theism, so it must be rejected. What a total assine statement to make. You think?

 

[Nineveh]

:bannana:

Thanks for proving my point(s) for all to see!

:thumb:

How about instead:

If you think you can demonstrate that I am wrong on any point of theology, any point at all, then show me; engage me in a real debate where you have to actually demonstrate that you know what you're talking about. - Clete

 

[intro2faith]

Clete,

Just a word of encouragement brother.I know it is a long fight to preach the good news of God, but be steadfast.

Seems he could find a better way to come across as a loving Christian who genuinely cares about you. It seems an awful lot like he just wants to prove people wrong, not bring them the truth. Course...that's just the way it seems to me....

 

[Clete]

That would be sad. Clete, is that the case? Surely you don't consider open theism has a benchmark for orthodoxy.

Of course I do not. Only frustrated hypocrites who cannot defend their own beliefs would resort to saying such things, perhaps so as to make it easy to dismiss my arguments and go on beleiving what they want to believe.

My feeling is he finds much of his identity in this doctrine.

This I don't think I could deny. I would say that I spend the largest percentage of my free time thinking about God and theology.

Notice that those subscribing to open theism find identity in this open theism while the rest of us merely describe ourselves as believers in Jesus Christ. Very interesting!

Veeery interrestinggg. Ooohhh! I'm cut to the quick Freak! I'm so convicted in my spirit because I'm such a horible Christian because I concerned about worshiping Jesus as He actually is and not the way Aristotle and Plato want me to think He must be.

You're going to be in trouble..... :chuckle:

As well he should be.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[drbrumley]

Seems he could find a better way to come across as a loving Christian who genuinely cares about you. It seems an awful lot like he just wants to prove people wrong, not bring them the truth. Course...that's just the way it seems to me....

Then tell your poddle Freak to lay off the heresey comments.