Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?

[Nang]

I attended a church many years ago, they kept changing Pastors over the years like a lot of churches. At one time we had a Pastor who was very intelligent, arrogant, uppity, and pretentious. All similar words, of course. Anyway, many years later a friend of mine in the Church told me, that Pastor was a Calvinist. Mind you, the church I was attending was a Mid-Acts Dispensational, Non-Denominational, Bible believing and Christ-centered Church. I doubt many people knew about this Pastors actually beliefs. He didn't preach Calvinism, he didn't teach it, and he never mentioned it. Why I, don't know? The church I was attending was a Grace Gospel Church.

Yeah . . I know all about that church . . .

 

[patrick jane]

Yeah . . I know all about that church . . .

Yeah, you know all about everything don't you?

 

[Nang]

Hilston is a smart man,

But not smart enough to not blame God as the author of sin.

I admit, however, that we Calvinists do a lousy job at times of really helping another grasp what we are saying. We are great about saying "God is NOT evil for planning my wife's cancer," but not so great at explaining 'why.'

God is not the cause of any sin or any disease . . . so there is no explanation to be made.

God was GOOD for/when planning my wife's cancer.

God is not to be held responsible for "planning" cancer in anyone.

However, we know God brings good out of all things that occur as a result of human corruption. All things. Period. Romans 8:28

Whether through healing of cancers and diseases, or not . . . our prayer will be: God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. God will work ETERNAL good to those who love Him, no matter their various earthly circumstances, and they must settle their faith in this reality, no matter the temporal circumstances or eventual endings to be faced.

I guess I am too old to speak otherwise. Death is a breath away from all of us. What is the "good" that we desire God work for us? My choice is everlasting life with Him . . apart from any more suffering of sin and sorrows. Revelation 21:4

Such promise is my hope and comfort in all things.

 

[Clete]

But not smart enough to not blame God as the author of sin.



God is not the cause of any sin or any disease . . . so there is no explanation to be made.



God is not to be held responsible for "planning" cancer in anyone.

However, we know God brings good out of all things that occur as a result of human corruption. All things. Period. Romans 8:28

Whether through healing of cancers and diseases, or not . . . our prayer will be: God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. God will work ETERNAL good to those who love Him, no matter their various earthly circumstances, and they must settle their faith in this reality, no matter the temporal circumstances or eventual endings to be faced.

I guess I am too old to speak otherwise. Death is a breath away from all of us. What is the "good" that we desire God work for us? My choice is everlasting life with Him . . apart from any more suffering of sin and sorrows. Revelation 21:4

Such promise is my hope and comfort in all things.

Calvinism is a mental disorder!

It has to be!

Nang here speaks about everyday life as though she was an Open Theist and doesn't see it! No, it isn't that she doesn't, its that she can't see it. It's as if she's had some sort of lobotomy that removes her mind's ability to detect when she's contradicting her own belief system.

And it isn't just Nang. Lots and lots of Calvinists, Hilston being a notable exception, has this same blindness. They speak like Calvinists when discussing doctrine and speak like Open Theists when discussing everything else.

And it's not just what they say either, it's what they do as well. They live their lives as though the future was open but mentally assent to the idea that it's completely settled. This much is not too surprising because that's the nature of reality. No one is capable of consistently living out a belief in something that is not consistent with reality. But what is surprising, to me at least, is their inability to see that this is what they are doing. I mean, how do you go onto a theology web forum as a strident Calvinist who prides themselves on their knowledge and understanding of the doctrine and its source documents and then type the words, "I guess I am too old to speak otherwise." or "My choice is everlasting life with Him..." and the other half dozen or more things Nang just said.

Nang, it isn't that you're too old to do otherwise its that you're too predestined to do otherwise - right? And you didn't choose Christ, Christ chose you - right?

I mean how in the world is it possible for anyone with enough brains to breath to not joke on their own self-contradictory words as they are being said?

The only possible explanation is that their minds are broken! Calvinism is a mental disorder. That's all there is to it!

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Nang]

Calvinism is a mental disorder!

It has to be!

Nang here speaks about everyday life as though she was an Open Theist and doesn't see it! No, it isn't that she doesn't, its that she can't see it. It's as if she's had some sort of lobotomy that removes her mind's ability to detect when she's contradicting her own belief system.

And it isn't just Nang. Lots and lots of Calvinists, Hilston being a notable exception, has this same blindness. They speak like Calvinists when discussing doctrine and speak like Open Theists when discussing everything else.

And it's not just what they say either, it's what they do as well. They live their lives as though the future was open but mentally assent to the idea that it's completely settled. This much is not too surprising because that's the nature of reality. No one is capable of consistently living out a belief in something that is not consistent with reality. But what is surprising, to me at least, is their inability to see that this is what they are doing. I mean, how do you go onto a theology web forum as a strident Calvinist who prides themselves on their knowledge and understanding of the doctrine and its source documents and then type the words, "I guess I am too old to speak otherwise." or "My choice is everlasting life with Him..." and the other half dozen or more things Nang just said.

Nang, it isn't that you're too old to do otherwise its that you're too predestined to do otherwise - right? And you didn't choose Christ, Christ chose you - right?

I mean how in the world is it possible for anyone with enough brains to breath to not joke on their own self-contradictory words as they are being said?

The only possible explanation is that their minds are broken! Calvinism is a mental disorder. That's all there is to it!

Resting in Him,
Clete

You make no sense . . .

All you contribute to these spiritual discussions is a lot of emotional white noise.

 

[beloved57]

Here is divine truth.

"God so loved the WORLD that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16.

Yes that scripture is true, however you teach salvation by works, by what a person does. You also deny that them Christ died for are saved by His Death alone.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Yeah . . I know all about that church . . .

I highly doubt it. It's not that I don't believe you, it's that, I don't believe you. Do you know the difference?

 

[Rosenritter]

But not smart enough to not blame God as the author of sin.

God is not the cause of any sin or any disease . . . so there is no explanation to be made.

2 Samuel 24:15 KJV
(15) So the LORD sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning even to the time appointed: and there died of the people from Dan even to Beersheba seventy thousand men.

2 Kings 5:27 KJV
(27) The leprosy therefore of Naaman shall cleave unto thee, and unto thy seed for ever. And he went out from his presence a leper as white as snow.

Acts 12:22-23 KJV
(22) And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man.
(23) And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.

I think that we can allow that God can be the cause of disease, without making him the author of evil. And by evil I mean not in the sense of "harm" but in the moral sense of "devil."

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I'm familiar with the local elder, paster, flock communications. I was comparing your "No one knows who the elect are but God" and "assurance". the question is suitable for you. if a person doesn't know about their election except God then how can that person has assurance.

My actual point was related to the man in the pulpit who is commanded by God to preach the good news promiscuously because only God knows those marked for election. My response was in the context of GM's nonsensical claim that Calvinism implies no one need even go to church if they are elect. He ignores the fact that God marking out of the elect also includes the means of how these so marked come into the Kingdom...by the hearing of the Good News.

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Perhaps not you, but, several posters on TOL have seen my posts on what I believe and why I believe it.?

Point me to them, GM.

AMR

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Point me to them, GM.

AMR

Over there.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

If indeed one IS elect,would it not make sense that God would find a way to get the "Message" to them, one way or another? I mean, what if an "Elect" wasn't a church going type? Couldn't/wouldn't God find a way to let him/her KNOW that they were of the chosen Elect? What if one of the "Elect" were in the deepest parts of Africa where no Missionary had ever been? In my humble opinion, Calvinism is one of Satan's best counterfeits. Like any good counterfeit, not everybody is tricked by it. Some see through the facade and see it for what it is. According to the Bible, one must first, "Hear the Gospel." Next, they realize they're a lost sinner in need of a Savior. By their own free will, they must decide to accept or reject the Gospel. After they have decided to place ALL their faith in Christ as their Savior, the Holy Spirit indwells, seals, and baptizes (not by water) them into the Body of Christ and they receive the righteousness of Christ. They are then, considered a child of God.

It's very important that a person reading and studying the Bible are worshipping the True God and the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. In my opinion, Calvinism isn't doing either. Therefore, how can they be saved? Calvinism CHANGES the character and intent of the God of the Bible in order to fit their "Belief system." Basically, they create their own god. They make him mesh with their way of thinking. A "Grace Believer" can look at a certain verse of Scripture and see one thing while a Calvinist sees something entirely different.

Calvinists put on their "Special Calvin Glasses" before reading Scripture. The glasses have a built-in filter. Calvinists see NO free will (concerning humanity) in the Bible. Grace Believers see free will throughout the entire Bible. It all comes back to those "Glasses."

 

[popsthebuilder]

If indeed one IS elect,would it not make sense that God would find a way to get the "Message" to them, one way or another? I mean, what if an "Elect" wasn't a church going type? Couldn't/wouldn't God find a way to let him/her KNOW that they were of the chosen Elect? What if one of the "Elect" were in the deepest parts of Africa where no Missionary had ever been? In my humble opinion, Calvinism is one of Satan's best counterfeits. Like any good counterfeit, not everybody is tricked by it. Some see through the facade and see it for what it is. According to the Bible, one must first, "Hear the Gospel." Next, they realize they're a lost sinner in need of a Savior. By their own free will, they must decide to accept or reject the Gospel. After they have decided to place ALL their faith in Christ as their Savior, the Holy Spirit indwells, seals, and baptizes (not by water) them into the Body of Christ and they receive the righteousness of Christ. They are then, considered a child of God.

It's very important that a person reading and studying the Bible are worshipping the True God and the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. In my opinion, Calvinism isn't doing either. Therefore, how can they be saved? Calvinism CHANGES the character and intent of the God of the Bible in order to fit their "Belief system." Basically, they create their own god. They make him mesh with their way of thinking. A "Grace Believer" can look at a certain verse of Scripture and see one thing while a Calvinist sees something entirely different.

Calvinists put on their "Special Calvin Glasses" before reading Scripture. The glasses have a built-in filter. Calvinists see NO free will (concerning humanity) in the Bible. Grace Believers see free will throughout the entire Bible. It all comes back to those "Glasses."

You asked a question about an elect not being the church going type, and how would they know of their own election.

I thought it was rhetorical and that you would provide an answer, but you didn't.

Just noting that I was interested in your answer, but didn't see it.

Peace

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk

 

[TulipBee]

My actual point was related to the man in the pulpit who is commanded by God to preach the good news promiscuously because only God knows those marked for election. My response was in the context of GM's nonsensical claim that Calvinism implies no one need even go to church if they are elect. He ignores the fact that God marking out of the elect also includes the means of how these so marked come into the Kingdom...by the hearing of the Good News.

AMR

i've had him on ignore for years. he is a silly boy

 

[Clete]

So, based on the quote from Luther. Calvinism teaches that if you want to be reasonably sure (not certain) that you "belong to the little flock of the elect" then all you have to do is grasp that which cannot be grasped except by those who belong to the little flock of the elect".

Or is he saying that anyone can grasp the God sent His Son to render satisfaction for your sin? In that case, Luther (and Calvinist) teach people to act as if Calvinism isn't true and that anyone can be saved. Maybe you are and maybe you aren't but if you don't "grasp God's promise" then you're for sure do not belong to the little flock of the elect.

I cannot think of a third logical alternative. Either way, if we are to follow Luther's advice, we must live our lives and practice our faith as though Calvinist doctrine is false.


When you start looking for it, this sort of double mindedness is everywhere in the Calvinist mind. Almost every sentence they speak works as an example of it. (Including, by the way, the ones spoken to refute the notion that there is no need to go to church if Calvinism is true.)

Calvinism is without a doubt a mental disorder.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

You make no sense . . .

All you contribute to these spiritual discussions is a lot of emotional white noise.

Says the woman with a broken mind!

 

[nikolai_42]

So, based on the quote from Luther. Calvinism teaches that if you want to be reasonably sure (not certain) that you "belong to the little flock of the elect" then all you have to do is grasp that which cannot be grasped except by those who belong to the little flock of the elect".

Or is he saying that anyone can grasp the God sent His Son to render satisfaction for your sin? In that case, Luther (and Calvinist) teach people to act as if Calvinism isn't true and that anyone can be saved. Maybe you are and maybe you aren't but if you don't "grasp God's promise" then you're for sure do not belong to the little flock of the elect.

I cannot think of a third logical alternative. Either way, if we are to follow Luther's advice, we must live our lives and practice our faith as though Calvinist doctrine is false.


When you start looking for it, this sort of double mindedness is everywhere in the Calvinist mind. Almost every sentence they speak works as an example of it. (Including, by the way, the ones spoken to refute the notion that there is no need to go to church if Calvinism is true.)

Calvinism is without a doubt a mental disorder.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Jesus Christ the Lord is a complete all-sufficient Savior. His invitation to the weary and heavy-laden is general, without exception, condition, or limitation. He has said, him who comes unto me, I will never cast out. God not only permits—but commands us to believe in the Son of his love. The apostle affirms that he is able to save to the uttermost, all who come unto God by him. When Moses raised the brazen serpent in the wilderness, the direction to the wounded Israelites was very short and simple—it was only, Look, and live! Thus the gospel addresses the sinner, Only believe, and you shall be saved.

Why then does not every sinner who is awakened to a sense of his guilt, danger, and helplessness; and whose desires are drawn towards the Savior—believe with full confidence, even upon his first application for mercy? Is not the remedy fully adequate to the malady? Is not the blood of Jesus able to cleanse from all sin? Is not the Word of the God of truth worthy of entire credit? Yet with such a Savior exhibited before the eyes of his mind, and with such promises sounding in his ears—he continues to hesitate and fluctuate between hope and fear. Could he rely as firmly on the Word of God, as he can on the word of a man, whom, he thinks, means what he says, and is able to make good his promises—he would immediately be filled with joy and peace in believing. But experience and observation may convince us, that, however rational and easy this assurance may seem in theory, it is ordinarily unattainable in practice—without passing through a train of previous exercises and conflicts.
...
But strong faith, and the effect of it, an abiding persuasion of our acceptance in the Beloved, and of our final perseverance in grace—are not necessarily connected with sensible comfort. A strong faith can trust God in the dark, and say with Job, "Though he slays me—yet will I trust in him." Yet it is not to be maintained without a diligent use of the instituted means of grace, and a conscientious attention to the precepts of the gospel. For mere notions of truth, destitute of power—will not keep the heart in peace. But this power depends upon the influence of the Holy Spirit; and if he is grieved by the willful commission of sin, or the willful neglect of the precepts—he hides his face, suspends his influence, and then confidence must proportionable decline, until he is pleased to return and revive it.
...
Unbelief is the primary cause of all our inquietude, from the moment that our hearts are drawn to seek salvation by Jesus. This inability to take God at his Word, should not be merely lamented as an infirmity—but watched, and prayed, and fought against as a great sin. A great sin indeed it is; the very root of our apostasy, from which every other sin proceeds. Unbelief often deceives us under the guise of humility, as though it would be presumption, in such sinners as we are, to believe the declarations of the God of truth. Many serious people, who are burdened with a sense of other sins, leave this radical evil, unbelief, out of their list of sin. They rather indulge it, and think they ought not to believe, until they can find a warrant from marks and evidences within themselves. But this is an affront to the wisdom and goodness of God, who points out to us the Son of his love—as our wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption, without any regard to what we have been, or to what we are, excepting that broken and contrite spirit—which only himself can create in us. And this broken spirit, though unbelief perverts it to our discouragement, is the very temper in which the Lord delights, and a surer evidence of true grace, than those which we are apt to contrive for ourselves. It is written, He who believes not the record which God has given of his Son, makes him a liar. Why do we not startle with horror—at the workings of unbelief, as we should do at a suggestion to commit murder, or the grossest outward enormity?

We don't always have that assured feeling but we are prone to walking according to what we see and feel (even after being saved). I believe...help Thou my unbelief.

 

[Robert Pate]

If indeed one IS elect,would it not make sense that God would find a way to get the "Message" to them, one way or another? I mean, what if an "Elect" wasn't a church going type? Couldn't/wouldn't God find a way to let him/her KNOW that they were of the chosen Elect? What if one of the "Elect" were in the deepest parts of Africa where no Missionary had ever been? In my humble opinion, Calvinism is one of Satan's best counterfeits. Like any good counterfeit, not everybody is tricked by it. Some see through the facade and see it for what it is. According to the Bible, one must first, "Hear the Gospel." Next, they realize they're a lost sinner in need of a Savior. By their own free will, they must decide to accept or reject the Gospel. After they have decided to place ALL their faith in Christ as their Savior, the Holy Spirit indwells, seals, and baptizes (not by water) them into the Body of Christ and they receive the righteousness of Christ. They are then, considered a child of God.

It's very important that a person reading and studying the Bible are worshipping the True God and the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. In my opinion, Calvinism isn't doing either. Therefore, how can they be saved? Calvinism CHANGES the character and intent of the God of the Bible in order to fit their "Belief system." Basically, they create their own god. They make him mesh with their way of thinking. A "Grace Believer" can look at a certain verse of Scripture and see one thing while a Calvinist sees something entirely different.

Calvinists put on their "Special Calvin Glasses" before reading Scripture. The glasses have a built-in filter. Calvinists see NO free will (concerning humanity) in the Bible. Grace Believers see free will throughout the entire Bible. It all comes back to those "Glasses."

We should thank the Lord everyday that we have not been deceived.

 

[Robert Pate]

My actual point was related to the man in the pulpit who is commanded by God to preach the good news promiscuously because only God knows those marked for election. My response was in the context of GM's nonsensical claim that Calvinism implies no one need even go to church if they are elect. He ignores the fact that God marking out of the elect also includes the means of how these so marked come into the Kingdom...by the hearing of the Good News.

AMR

There is no good news in believing that billions have been damned to hell by an unjust God.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

There is no good news in believing that billions have been damned to hell by an unjust God.

Good post. The Calvinist god isn't the God of the Bible. Calvinism is a clever counterfeit conceived by Satan or at least helped along by him.