True.
Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
True.
The Great Preacher J. Vernon McGee said something of this nature: "If what Calvinists say is true about God and the Elect, I would stop preaching right now."
Calvinists need to take a closer look at the God of the Old Testament. (He's also the ONLY God) He desired His Chosen People to worship Him alone and not cleave to idols. Yet, at times, they CHOSE to rebel against Him and worship their idols. That was their choice. How could they have a CHOICE if they lacked FREE WILL?
To believe that the "Chosen People" of God had NO free will, is to say, "God chose for them to rebel against Him and cleave to their idols." Those are the ONLY two logical possibilities.
1) The Chosen of their free will chose to follow after idols.
2) God chose for them to follow after idols.
Anything else, and we must dabble in a form of "Twilight Zone" type of reasoning.
To believe that the "Chosen People" of God had NO free will, is to say, "God chose for them to rebel against Him and cleave to their idols." Those are the ONLY two logical possibilities.
1) The Chosen of their free will chose to follow after idols.
2) God chose for them to follow after idols.
Anything else, and we must dabble in a form of "Twilight Zone" type of reasoning.
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Would it not be counter productive for God to CHOOSE for His people to walk away from Him and worship idols? Does that make any sense? I believe God is a logical Creator. Calvinism makes Him out to be illogical.
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Such a view assumes God is impotent, unable to bring those marked out for election into the Kingdom by the ordinary means of the hearing of the Gospel, not to mention any extraordinary means God is free to use. If one is worried about the pagan in the jungle then one should get busy supporting the promulgation of the Good News to them, for the Great Commission is but one of God's means by which His ends are made manifest.
Scripture teaches us none of God's children are lost to Him. I trust God to make good on His promises. Do you? Do you believe God knows the exact number of all who have been and will be brought into the Kingdom? I hope you do, hence, God also knows how to pull that off and has the power to do so.
More opinions sans anything resembling an actual argument to support them.
AMR
According to Calvinism, God chose His "Elect" before the foundation of the world and chose the rest for eternal damnation. Only on the basis of His SOVERNIGHTY and not because the supposed Elect were anything special. Yet, we see in the New Testament how God sends His Son to die on the cross for the sins of humanity as a whole. All He asks in return is the faith of the believer. It's by God's Grace through the faith of the individual in the saving power of the shed blood of Christ and His resurrection.
There's a seeming Paradox somewhere within this area of discussion.
There's a seeming Paradox somewhere within this area of discussion.
As I have said before, I'll say again, I believe Calvinism is a counterfeit somehow devised by Satan to disrupt the purity of the original Gospel of Grace.
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WCF
"True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as,
- by negligence in preserving of it,
- by falling into some special sin which woundeth the conscience and grieveth the Spirit;
- by some sudden or vehement temptation,
- by God’s withdrawing the light of His countenance, and suffering even such as fear Him to walk in darkness and to have no light: (Cant. 5:2, 3, 6, Ps. 51:8, 12, 14, Eph. 4:30, 31,Ps. 77:1-10, Matt. 26:69-72, Ps. 31:22, Ps. 88, Isa. 50:10)
...yet are they never utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart, and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may, in due time, be revived; (1 John 3:9, Luke 22:32, Job 13:15, Ps. 73:15, Ps. 51:8, 12, Isa. 50:10) and be the which, in the mean time, they are supported from utter despair. (Micah 7:7-9, Jer. 32:40, Isa. 54:7-10, Ps. 22:1, Ps. 88)"
It is to believers that assurance belongs. It does not belong to those who "know" just how much or how excellent is their faith. It is the Object of our faith that saves, and it is His hold on us, not our hold on Him. Faith the size of a grain of mustard seed is more than enough to save the weakest sinner--let it only be in Christ.
From the WLC:
"Q. 80. Can true believers be infallibly assured that they are in the estate of grace, and that they shall persevere therein unto salvation?
"A. Such as truly believe in Christ, and endeavor to walk in all good conscience before him, may, without extraordinary revelation, by faith grounded upon the truth of God’s promises, and by the Spirit enabling them to discern in themselves those graces to which the promises of life are made, and bearing witness with their spirits that they are the children of God, be infallibly assured that they are in the estate of grace and shall persevere therein unto salvation. 1 John 2:3; 1 Cor. 2:12; 1 John 3:14, 18-19, 21, 24; 1 John 4:13, 16; Heb. 6: 11- 12; Rom. 8:16; 1 John 5:13.
"Q. 81. Are all true believers at all times assured of their present being in the estate of grace, and that they shall be saved?
"A. Assurance of grace and salvation not being of the essence of faith, true believers may wait long before they obtain it; and, after the enjoyment thereof, may have it weakened and intermitted, through manifold distempers, sins, temptations, and desertions; yet are they never left without such a presence and support of the Spirit of God, as keeps them from sinking into utter despair. Eph. 1:13; Isa. 1:10; Ps. 88:1-18; Ps. 77:1-12; Song of Sol. 5:2-3, 6; Ps. 51:8, 12; Ps. 31:22; Ps. 22:1; 1 John 3:9; Job 13:15; Ps. 73:15, 23; Isa. 54:7-10."
The "graces" that you are enabled to see in yourself to which the promises of life are made are discussed in the WLC:
1. Faith (Question 32)
2. Justification (Question 73)
3. Good works (Question 73, 75)
4. Repentance unto life (Question 75, 76)
5. Sanctification (Question 75)
I believe assurance can be gained from our walk of faith from feeding our faith and starving our doubts by not neglecting daily Scripture study, rejoicing in hope, being patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer (Romans 12:12), fellowship with other believers, keeping stewardship of the secular and spiritual gifts God has given you, and with regular assembly with others to worship God, receive instruction, access the ordinary means of grace, and be subject to discipline.
From the Canons of Dordt:
"Article 12: The Assurance of Election
"Assurance of this their eternal and unchangeable election to salvation is given to the chosen in due time, though by various stages and in differing measure. Such assurance comes not by inquisitive searching into the hidden and deep things of God, but by noticing within themselves, with spiritual joy and holy delight, the unmistakable fruits of election pointed out in God's Word-- such as a true faith in Christ, a childlike fear of God, a godly sorrow for their sins, a hunger and thirst for righteousness, and so on.
"Article 13: The Fruit of This Assurance
"In their awareness and assurance of this election God's children daily find greater cause to humble themselves before God, to adore the fathomless depth of his mercies, to cleanse themselves, and to give fervent love in return to him who first so greatly loved them. This is far from saying that this teaching concerning election, and reflection upon it, make God's children lax in observing his commandments or carnally self-assured. By God's just judgment this does usually happen to those who casually take for granted the grace of election or engage in idle and brazen talk about it but are unwilling to walk in the ways of the chosen."
That we can be certain of our full assurance, without any sort of extraordinary revelation, is clear from Scripture. We need to trust God's word, not our fickle feelings, when He says "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life." 1 John 5:13
It is through the Scripture that the Spirit bears witness to us that we are God's adopted children. The underlying text of the New Testament for "assurance" means "full assurance, certainty". The word (pleroforia) with this clear meaning appears only four times in the New Testament: 1 Cor. 2:2; 1 Thess. 1:5; Heb. 6:11; 10:22.
At the end, in the day of the Lord, I do not expect confidence flowing from having had "done this or that." God has made of me what He willed, and I am entirely a product of His choice.
Rev.19:7-8: "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."
AMR
If, as Calvinists say, "God chooses who gets saved and humanity has no say." Then, all that needs to be done is, kick back and wait and see. However, if the Grace Gospel is correct (and it is) we must hear the Gospel and what it offers, then, we must place ALL of our faith/hope in the Lord Jesus Christ and we are guaranteed eternal life, no judgement, the Righteousness of Christ bestowed upon us as believers, and the knowledge that we are part of the Body of Christ and a Child of God.
No, I guess I'm a little slow. I don't get it. What if you were to explain it in more precise detail? However, I pre-warn you, I have little patience in the reading of small print details. So, you'll have no assurance that I'll peruse what you create in your post. Be forewarned. I have one speed: "Simple."
Calvinism has CHANGED THE CHARACTER and INTENT of the God of the Bible in order to make Him fit their "Belief System." That I can see. Have you read the ENTIRE Bible word for word, name by name and cover to cover?
One of your problems AMR is, you write like a textbook. Your posts are like the small print on a prescription bottle. I don't know about you, but, I can't get myself to read that stuff. I get bored right away. The same with contracts. I'd rather have it articulated in such a way that it is kept simple and to the point. I usually won't read a long post in any thread. I try my best to bypass them completely. I write a sentence or a few sentences and leave it at that. That's just me. I refuse to read posts that are longer than a football field or have more words in them than "War and Peace." Again, that's just me. I have my limitations like all of us.
Post #1193 is an excellent example of what I'm talking about. If ya wanna converse with me you're gonna have to keep it simple or forget it and look for someone with more patience.
Also, you may consider the idea of using normal everyday words and phrases so that everybody KNOWS what you're talking about. Not everybody on TOL is a Harvard or Yale Graduate. Just some good advice. Take it or leave it.
It's always safe to think of your audience as having the equivalent education of a High School Junior-senior that way you can't go wrong.
It's better to have people understand what you're saying, then, it is to have them believe you're smarter than them.
Enough of the lecture, your turn.
Well, perhaps my "Lecture" drove AMR away. However, it's best for him to realize who he's dealing with. I'm but a simple man who cannot endure lengthy, protracted, and highly advanced word and phraseology. I like a conversation where everybody around the table knows what is being said and nobody is left in the lurch. If somebody is going to post a Scripture verse, why not post the entire verse so the reader can peruse it right before them rather than, take the time to look it up?
Also, it's best to not post 40 verses or so that nobody is gonna look up while they're posting? At least AMR knows where I stand now and if he wishes to post with me, he'll know how to adjust the framework of his comments and opinions.
Also, it's best to not post 40 verses or so that nobody is gonna look up while they're posting? At least AMR knows where I stand now and if he wishes to post with me, he'll know how to adjust the framework of his comments and opinions.
Ask Mr. Religion
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Start here:
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?119462-Does-Calvinism-Make-God-Unjust&p=4809820&viewfull=1#post4809820
Then I asked:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...e-God-Unjust&p=4810108&viewfull=1#post4810108
Your response was:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...e-God-Unjust&p=4810126&viewfull=1#post4810126
To which comes my rejoinder:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...e-God-Unjust&p=4810417&viewfull=1#post4810417
And we end up here. You post so many streams of consciousness of whatever pops into your head that I guess you have trouble keeping up with your own words. Slown down a wee bit. :AMR:
Bottom line: you claim that you have explained your views beyond mere opinions. I challenge that statement with a request for evidence. You have yet to provide it. Still waiting.
AMR