DO YOU SIN

glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
Truster said:
If someone is a Silver Member is that due to hair colouring? I ask because my hair is kind of bronze.
Click to expand...

Ah, no wonder....you're not there yet. That explains a lot. :baby:



Proverbs 16:31 Gray hair is a crown of splendor; it is attained in the way of righteousness.
 
Ask Mr. Religion

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Satan is God's Devil

Satan is God's Devil

Evil.Eye.<(I)> said:
For the record... Truster ... "trusts" the doctrine so well... He linked the Devil to God as God's sock puppet in a previous thread.
Click to expand...
To avoid odd views of dualism, that there are equal and opposing eternal forces—good and evil—at work, we understand why Luther would state "Even the Devil is God's devil."

That Satan is a creature means he is subject to the Lord, who uses him to fulfill His good purposes (Rom. 8:28). In the final analysis, the Devil is God’s Devil (to summarize Martin Luther) and never operates outside the Lord’s decree.

This truth can be seen when we compare 1 Chronicles 21:1 with 2 Samuel 24. Applying material from the books of Samuel to the Israelites after the Babylonian exile, the Chronicler tells us Satan incited David to take a census of Israel (1 Chronicles 21:1) even though 2 Samuel 24:1 says God moved David on that occasion. This is no contradiction; it illustrates the doctrine of providence.

Since God is sovereign over all, everything that happens is grounded in His plan. David commanded a census because the Lord ultimately planned that he do so, but Satan was used as the secondary cause to incite David. God ordained David’s sin, but He is not to blame for the temptation, for Satan did the tempting. In this case we might say the Lord “allowed” Satan to tempt David in order to clarify the point that God does not stand behind evil deeds in the same way that He does behind goodness. But make no mistake, God’s decree of evil is not bare permission—as if God sat in a watchtower, awaiting chance events, and his judgments thus depended upon human will.

That God rules over Satan without Himself being guilty of sin is a hard truth, but it is also comforting. It tells us that what we suffer from the Devil, his demons, and all evil is not purposeless but will lead to our good and God’s glory.

Spoiler

From:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...to-Get-Saved&p=4622878&viewfull=1#post4622878

Why Suffering in the World?

We believers in orthodox Christendom do not not believe that "purposeless suffering" exists. God is wholly sovereign, therefore there is nothing that happens in the universe that is not outside of his purview and control. Recall that even the devil had to get permission from God to visit suffering upon Job. This is why Luther remarked, "Satan is God's devil."

This is a deeply personal topic for me. My dear wife has suffered for many years, confined to her bed most days, unable to think clearly, often endangering herself and those around her, and in requiring my 24-hr/7-day personal care for all her needs. It is sometimes enervating for me, as it confines me to be at her bedside many hours of the day, and I do ask God "why?" often, but never with my fist extended heavenward in anger. Frustration, yes. Anger, never.

There is suffering in the world for many reasons. We cannot understand all the reasons for these things, for a transcendent (extending or lying beyond the limits of ordinary experience) God is after all, knowable only in a limited sense by our finite minds. When we see suffering and seemingly meaningless evil, it is difficult to believe that there is a purpose in it. Yet we know that God must have a morally sufficient reason for permitting evil to occur, for he is certainly able to eliminate evil in this world.

We know God is righteous, and thus we must trust that some greater good comes from God's decision to not eliminate evil. As in the case of Joseph, who suffered greatly at the hands of his brothers and others, yet explained to them, in Genesis 50:20 "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.

We need not look further than the Cross to see how the most evil act in human history, the crucifixion of our Lord, was purposed by God to bring about the greatest good possible—eternal life for God’s people.

So these are just two examples that teach us that God, being perfectly holy, wills righteously those things which men do wickedly. Now I am not arguing that the evil we see in this world is not really evil. There is no doubt that genuine evil is present. But there is also no doubt that evil occurs only because God actively (not passively) permits it for reasons He has not chosen to fully reveal to us. Perhaps God does not reveal the reasons because we are just incapable of understanding the reason, or for His own good and wise counsel (Duet. 29:29)

For example, think about finding an animal with its leg caught in a trap. To extricate the poor creature you will have to perhaps push the trap deeper into its leg in order to release the locking mechanism, causing great pain. To the animal, which cannot comprehend what you are doing or why you are doing it, your action appears that just more evil is being inflicted upon it. Yet, the reality is, from your vantage point as a being with much higher intelligence and state of being than the animal, that you are actually freeing the creature from its predicament, albeit with the short-term required pain that accompanies your actions.

Yet another analogy is treatment of children by doctors. Sometimes that treatment is very painful and the child cannot fully understand why he or she must suffer at the hands of a person who is supposed to be healing them, yet the treatment brings about a greater good in the child’s life.

I think if we look carefully in the Scriptures we can determine some of the reasons for suffering.

First suffering can be a test of faith such as described in
1Pe 1:7 so that the tested genuineness of your faith--more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire--may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Second, suffering can be a sanctifying experience. Joseph saw how an apparent evil towards him was meant for a greater good by God:
Gen 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

Third, suffering could be a chastisement as the result of sin in a person’s life. Chastisement does not mean complete and total rejection by God, only that our souls may be cleansed from the malady of sin. Paul spoke of this chastisement:
1Co 11:29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself.
1Co 11:30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.
1Co 11:31 But if we judged ourselves truly, we would not be judged.
1Co 11:32 But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world.

Yet, not all illnesses or sickness is the result of sin. Christ clearly said as much:
John 9:1 As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth.
John 9:2 And his disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
John 9:3 Jesus answered, "It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him.

We see here that Christ did not imply that the man or his parents had not sinned. He meant that the man’s blindness was not a direct result of sin in their lives. God had actively permitted (willfully ordained) this man to be born blind in order that the man might become a means of displaying the mighty works of God. Before the man was born, the Christ knew He would give sight to those blind eyes.

Fourth, suffering can sometimes be considered a means by which we display the sympathy of Christ in a practical manner, thus proving our faith through works. The Apostle Paul notes:
Col 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,

The afflictions endured by Paul in his flesh were for the sake of Christ's body, namely, the church. The sufferings of non-believing people are, in one sense, purposeless. There is no high dignity attached to these sufferings. The sufferings of the non-believer are only a foretaste of the torment of hell to be endured forever. But the suffering of the believer is not the same. When believers suffer for Christ, Christ in a very real way suffers with them.

Fifth, suffering can be a means by which we are tempered (strengthened) for the eventualities to come. Christ, when speaking to Peter of his eventual death stated:
John 21:18 Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were young, you used to dress yourself and walk wherever you wanted, but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will dress you and carry you where you do not want to go.

As in the old saying, “what doesn’t kill you, sometimes makes you stronger”, suffering can build us up so that we are better prepared for the future and its travails.

Sixth, suffering can be used as a Christian witness to others of God’s unmerited grace. All watch how we believers bear our suffering. Our attitude (spoken and unspoken) towards an illness, accident, etc. and our reception of illness, accident, etc., speak volumes when our explicit spoken testimony of faith is rejected.

Seventh, suffering is sometimes a means of weaning us from the things of this world to cause us to draw nearer to God. Suffering should be a means of educating us to the prospect of heaven. This earthly world is not the home of the believer. We are pilgrims and strangers here on this fallen mortal coil whose citizenship is in another place. Our minds should be focused on things invisible and not in the temporal things of this life.

We must remember that with the fall of mankind in Eden sin entered the world, corrupting earth and all its inhabitants. Thus we have sin directly causing suffering when sinful people commit sinful acts. We have sin causing suffering indirectly by the deteriorating earth and all its natural disasters.

Eighth, suffering is actually a means by which we can comfort others, so there is a fellowship of suffering in some cases.
2Co 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,
2Co 1:4 who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.
2Co 1:5 For as we share abundantly in Christ's sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too.

Christ told us that we would suffer in this world:
John 16:33 I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.

But why doesn’t God just stop evil actions that cause innocent people to suffer?

Jer 12:1 Righteous are you, O LORD, when I complain to you; yet I would plead my case before you. Why does the way of the wicked prosper? Why do all who are treacherous thrive?
Jer 12:2 You plant them, and they take root; they grow and produce fruit; you are near in their mouth and far from their heart.

So in the end, some still like to ask questions like: Why doesn’t God intervene to stop evil if He is all-loving and all-powerful? Why doesn’t He stop the drunk driver’s car that is going to crash into a bus? Why doesn’t He deflect the murderer’s bullets?

The person asking these questions doesn’t really want God to stop all their evil actions. They don’t want to be invisibly gagged every time they’re about to say something hurtful; they don’t want to stub their toe when they try to kick the dog. They just think it would be good if God stopped certain evil acts or just the evil acts of others. But that would make life impossible. There would be no freedoms, no regularity and no personal responsibility.

Having said this, we must never forget that God is not indifferent to our sufferings for we have the Helper, the Holy Spirit, to bear our travails with us. Moreover, God's grace restrains sin and sinners so that we can appreciate mercy and unmerited grace in light of sin. If God did not do so our streets would be running with the blood of and drawn by the reprobate.

See also Piper and Taylor’s, Suffering and the Sovereignty of God available for purchase here.


AMR
 
T

Truster

New member
When I was at Bible College a new lecturer had heard about me and asked if I'd give a testimony. When I'd finished he said, "I hate people like you". I didn't flinch and just stood looking at him. He then added that I have had the best of both worlds. Lived a life of extreme hedonistic abandonment and NOW I was forgiven and living a blessed life.

It didn't dawn on me immediately, but here was a pastor who was under the erroneous impression that sin is just a guilty pleasure.

IT'S NOT​
.
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
Truster said:
When I was at Bible College a new lecturer had heard about me and asked if I'd give a testimony. When I'd finished he said, "I hate people like you". I didn't flinch and just stood looking at him. He then added that I have had the best of both worlds. Lived a life of extreme hedonistic abandonment and NOW I was forgiven and living a blessed life.

It didn't dawn on me immediately, but here was a pastor who was under the erroneous impression that sin is just a guilty pleasure.

IT'S NOT​
.
Click to expand...

Actually it's a wonderful tool for satan to use to bring people under condemnation. Rather than believe Jesus took care of all sin on the cross, satan manages to keep some under bondage to their own guilt and keep them obsessed with the "guilt" of others. Just keep preaching about sin and deny the work of the cross....he'll be happy.
 
Evil.Eye.<(I)>

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

BANNED
Banned
Ask Mr. Religion said:
To avoid odd views of dualism, that there are equal and opposing eternal forces—good and evil—at work, we understand why Luther would state "Even the Devil is God's devil."

That Satan is a creature means he is subject to the Lord, who uses him to fulfill His good purposes (Rom. 8:28). In the final analysis, the Devil is God’s Devil (to summarize Martin Luther) and never operates outside the Lord’s decree.

This truth can be seen when we compare 1 Chronicles 21:1 with 2 Samuel 24. Applying material from the books of Samuel to the Israelites after the Babylonian exile, the Chronicler tells us Satan incited David to take a census of Israel (1 Chronicles 21:1) even though 2 Samuel 24:1 says God moved David on that occasion. This is no contradiction; it illustrates the doctrine of providence.

Since God is sovereign over all, everything that happens is grounded in His plan. David commanded a census because the Lord ultimately planned that he do so, but Satan was used as the secondary cause to incite David. God ordained David’s sin, but He is not to blame for the temptation, for Satan did the tempting. In this case we might say the Lord “allowed” Satan to tempt David in order to clarify the point that God does not stand behind evil deeds in the same way that He does behind goodness. But make no mistake, God’s decree of evil is not bare permission—as if God sat in a watchtower, awaiting chance events, and his judgments thus depended upon human will.

That God rules over Satan without Himself being guilty of sin is a hard truth, but it is also comforting. It tells us that what we suffer from the Devil, his demons, and all evil is not purposeless but will lead to our good and God’s glory.

Spoiler

From:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...to-Get-Saved&p=4622878&viewfull=1#post4622878

Why Suffering in the World?

We believers in orthodox Christendom do not not believe that "purposeless suffering" exists. God is wholly sovereign, therefore there is nothing that happens in the universe that is not outside of his purview and control. Recall that even the devil had to get permission from God to visit suffering upon Job. This is why Luther remarked, "Satan is God's devil."

This is a deeply personal topic for me. My dear wife has suffered for many years, confined to her bed most days, unable to think clearly, often endangering herself and those around her, and in requiring my 24-hr/7-day personal care for all her needs. It is sometimes enervating for me, as it confines me to be at her bedside many hours of the day, and I do ask God "why?" often, but never with my fist extended heavenward in anger. Frustration, yes. Anger, never.

There is suffering in the world for many reasons. We cannot understand all the reasons for these things, for a transcendent (extending or lying beyond the limits of ordinary experience) God is after all, knowable only in a limited sense by our finite minds. When we see suffering and seemingly meaningless evil, it is difficult to believe that there is a purpose in it. Yet we know that God must have a morally sufficient reason for permitting evil to occur, for he is certainly able to eliminate evil in this world.

We know God is righteous, and thus we must trust that some greater good comes from God's decision to not eliminate evil. As in the case of Joseph, who suffered greatly at the hands of his brothers and others, yet explained to them, in Genesis 50:20 "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.

We need not look further than the Cross to see how the most evil act in human history, the crucifixion of our Lord, was purposed by God to bring about the greatest good possible—eternal life for God’s people.

So these are just two examples that teach us that God, being perfectly holy, wills righteously those things which men do wickedly. Now I am not arguing that the evil we see in this world is not really evil. There is no doubt that genuine evil is present. But there is also no doubt that evil occurs only because God actively (not passively) permits it for reasons He has not chosen to fully reveal to us. Perhaps God does not reveal the reasons because we are just incapable of understanding the reason, or for His own good and wise counsel (Duet. 29:29)

For example, think about finding an animal with its leg caught in a trap. To extricate the poor creature you will have to perhaps push the trap deeper into its leg in order to release the locking mechanism, causing great pain. To the animal, which cannot comprehend what you are doing or why you are doing it, your action appears that just more evil is being inflicted upon it. Yet, the reality is, from your vantage point as a being with much higher intelligence and state of being than the animal, that you are actually freeing the creature from its predicament, albeit with the short-term required pain that accompanies your actions.

Yet another analogy is treatment of children by doctors. Sometimes that treatment is very painful and the child cannot fully understand why he or she must suffer at the hands of a person who is supposed to be healing them, yet the treatment brings about a greater good in the child’s life.

I think if we look carefully in the Scriptures we can determine some of the reasons for suffering.

First suffering can be a test of faith such as described in
1Pe 1:7 so that the tested genuineness of your faith--more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire--may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Second, suffering can be a sanctifying experience. Joseph saw how an apparent evil towards him was meant for a greater good by God:
Gen 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

Third, suffering could be a chastisement as the result of sin in a person’s life. Chastisement does not mean complete and total rejection by God, only that our souls may be cleansed from the malady of sin. Paul spoke of this chastisement:
1Co 11:29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself.
1Co 11:30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.
1Co 11:31 But if we judged ourselves truly, we would not be judged.
1Co 11:32 But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world.

Yet, not all illnesses or sickness is the result of sin. Christ clearly said as much:
John 9:1 As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth.
John 9:2 And his disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
John 9:3 Jesus answered, "It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him.

We see here that Christ did not imply that the man or his parents had not sinned. He meant that the man’s blindness was not a direct result of sin in their lives. God had actively permitted (willfully ordained) this man to be born blind in order that the man might become a means of displaying the mighty works of God. Before the man was born, the Christ knew He would give sight to those blind eyes.

Fourth, suffering can sometimes be considered a means by which we display the sympathy of Christ in a practical manner, thus proving our faith through works. The Apostle Paul notes:
Col 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,

The afflictions endured by Paul in his flesh were for the sake of Christ's body, namely, the church. The sufferings of non-believing people are, in one sense, purposeless. There is no high dignity attached to these sufferings. The sufferings of the non-believer are only a foretaste of the torment of hell to be endured forever. But the suffering of the believer is not the same. When believers suffer for Christ, Christ in a very real way suffers with them.

Fifth, suffering can be a means by which we are tempered (strengthened) for the eventualities to come. Christ, when speaking to Peter of his eventual death stated:
John 21:18 Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were young, you used to dress yourself and walk wherever you wanted, but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will dress you and carry you where you do not want to go.

As in the old saying, “what doesn’t kill you, sometimes makes you stronger”, suffering can build us up so that we are better prepared for the future and its travails.

Sixth, suffering can be used as a Christian witness to others of God’s unmerited grace. All watch how we believers bear our suffering. Our attitude (spoken and unspoken) towards an illness, accident, etc. and our reception of illness, accident, etc., speak volumes when our explicit spoken testimony of faith is rejected.

Seventh, suffering is sometimes a means of weaning us from the things of this world to cause us to draw nearer to God. Suffering should be a means of educating us to the prospect of heaven. This earthly world is not the home of the believer. We are pilgrims and strangers here on this fallen mortal coil whose citizenship is in another place. Our minds should be focused on things invisible and not in the temporal things of this life.

We must remember that with the fall of mankind in Eden sin entered the world, corrupting earth and all its inhabitants. Thus we have sin directly causing suffering when sinful people commit sinful acts. We have sin causing suffering indirectly by the deteriorating earth and all its natural disasters.

Eighth, suffering is actually a means by which we can comfort others, so there is a fellowship of suffering in some cases.
2Co 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,
2Co 1:4 who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.
2Co 1:5 For as we share abundantly in Christ's sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too.

Christ told us that we would suffer in this world:
John 16:33 I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.

But why doesn’t God just stop evil actions that cause innocent people to suffer?

Jer 12:1 Righteous are you, O LORD, when I complain to you; yet I would plead my case before you. Why does the way of the wicked prosper? Why do all who are treacherous thrive?
Jer 12:2 You plant them, and they take root; they grow and produce fruit; you are near in their mouth and far from their heart.

So in the end, some still like to ask questions like: Why doesn’t God intervene to stop evil if He is all-loving and all-powerful? Why doesn’t He stop the drunk driver’s car that is going to crash into a bus? Why doesn’t He deflect the murderer’s bullets?

The person asking these questions doesn’t really want God to stop all their evil actions. They don’t want to be invisibly gagged every time they’re about to say something hurtful; they don’t want to stub their toe when they try to kick the dog. They just think it would be good if God stopped certain evil acts or just the evil acts of others. But that would make life impossible. There would be no freedoms, no regularity and no personal responsibility.

Having said this, we must never forget that God is not indifferent to our sufferings for we have the Helper, the Holy Spirit, to bear our travails with us. Moreover, God's grace restrains sin and sinners so that we can appreciate mercy and unmerited grace in light of sin. If God did not do so our streets would be running with the blood of and drawn by the reprobate.

See also Piper and Taylor’s, Suffering and the Sovereignty of God available for purchase here.


AMR
Click to expand...

Hi AMR,

I go so far as to note that Satan is the very angel of death at the Pass over. That was Satan on God's leash. However... Anti-Free-Will theism has to account for Sin as "God's Will". This is a direct contradiction of one single verse.

Gal. 2:17 But if seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves also have been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? Never may it be!​

Also...

There is this...

James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone.​

These are crucial because one asserts that God never promotes sin. This means that Sin promotes itself... outside of God's will.

Even Jesus (God the Son... Jesus) says... "Not My will but Yours". He resisted the temptation He was feeling to avoid torture and death.

God also doesn't tempt.

This means that either God is using the old God-Father argument... and has clean hands... even though He ordered the hit...

Or... that God is allowing free will out of Love and working "With" "Choice" in a responsive manner.

One view holds to ALL scripture and the other doesn't. This is my base argument and can get turned up if you desire to discuss this.
 
Last edited:
T

Truster

New member
Tambora said:
I don't see how anyone can read the Bible and come away with that impression.
Click to expand...

One of the pastors suggested he was being called to evangelise in night clubs. I had to point out you can't hear yourself think in there. He seemed genuinely disappointed.
 
T

Truster

New member
Bright Raven said:
Of course not!
Click to expand...

So does the pain, embarrassment and disgust of sin make you less likely to commit the same sin again?

For the sake of rational communication lets say we are discussing sins of the flesh and not of the mind. If you don't want to discuss it then that is fine too.
 
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