Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

[Right Divider]

None of this disputes that every knee will bow and every tongue confess.

The EVERY has a context and is not unlimited.

Even if you want to ignore the translations that have everyone giving praise it's not hyperbole unless you want to read that into the passages. It seems you'd rather there's a God who forces people into worship and there being an interminable state of suffering for other people no matter what. Seen it before.

That you are blind means that nobody can communicate with you.

You've earned a spot on my coveted ignore list.

 

[Arthur Brain]

The EVERY has a context and is not unlimited.


That you are blind means that nobody can communicate with you.

You've earned a spot on my coveted ignore list.

Eh, as you will.

 

[MennoSota]

Wow....
John 3: 16. For so greatly did God love the

world

that He gave His only Son, that every one who trusts in Him may not perish but may have the Life of Ages. 17. For God did not send His Son into the

world

to judge the

world,

but that the

world

might be saved through Him.

(So world doesn't pertain to all here)



Sent from my Nokia 6.1 using Tapatalk

This is easily shown to be for the elect by looking at Jesus conversation with Nicodemus both before and after this verse. Poor exegetical skill or effort leads to the universalism you are attempting. People who despise the Sovereignty of God teach universalism in hopes that they can create their own pathway to heaven.

 

[Arthur Brain]

I don't know how God created non-physical (ie, supernatural) beings either. Doesn't mean it can't be done by the Supernatural Creator.

Or, it could just be that nothing is thrown and that it's simply metaphor. Death is not a skeleton in a black shroud holding a scythe...

Agnosticism stems from a rejection of God.

The fact is that God does exist, and that you're either with God or against God. There IS NO in-between.

No, it's simply a lack of surety that a deity exists.

That's reality, Arty.

Reality is that death is the final point at which God says time's up. You chose not to accept My free gift, and rejected Me, and so I will honor your desire, and you not have to be with Me for the rest of eternity.

Arthur, again, if God were to allow any number of chances after death, NO ONE would repent at all, because they would have the option of putting off their repentance until later. It would be unjust for God to do that.

No, once again it's just your subjective and callous opinion. Was Thomas condemned because he demanded proof of Jesus's wounds after rising? No, he was reprimanded but that was pretty much it. How on earth do you know how people would react once faced with an inalienable truth? That they'd just carry on rejecting it? People aren't just carbon copies of each other JR.

Besides, how many opportunities does one have in a lifetime on this earth to repent? hundreds? thousands? Too many to count.

Say that to someone indoctrinated into a non Christian faith, or even a Christian one that you might deem heretical. It's not some level playing field where everyone is on a race track and can see the finishing flag.

No, a "second chance" wouldn't get the result God wants, which is that all would repent and turn to Him.

Which again, is just your subjective opinion and really not grounded in anything much.

*cough*Freelight*cough*Urantians*cough*

You think Freelight thinks he's a God?! :freak:

Obviously, freely given. And yet, people will reject God.

If everyone willingly bends their knee and gives praise then that ain't happening.

I provided the Koine Greek and the Hebrew, which is what most Bibles are translated from. Koine Greek is the original language the New Testament was written in, and Hebrew was the original language the Old Testament was written in.

In terms of accuracy, it ranks higher (the highest being the original manuscripts which have been lost to time) than the english versions, due to them being closer to the originals.

FL provided a salient link that counters that and he's not a slouch where it comes to the original texts and translations. I remember him from another forum.

Yes, they are. It is more compassionate for God to separate those who reject Him from those who love Him than it is for God to allow both rejecters and lovers to mingle.

Those who reject God harm themselves and those around them. Those who love God do not.

Oh please, I know atheists and agnostics who are some of the most kind and compassionate people I've met in my life, more so than you by the proverbial mile. They wouldn't wish suffering on others that you so glibly recommend for them.

God understands that those who reject Him don't want to be with Him for all of eternity. So He allows them to depart from Him.

You are not a spokesperson for God.

Theistic evolution is an oxymoron.

They think God used evolution to bring about the creatures we see today, and cosmological evolution (including the Big Bang) to bring about the universe.

The problem with that is that "evolution" is an unguided process.

They're saying a guided unguided process resulted in the universe we see today.

It's a self-contradictory position, which, even if it weren't for the fact that it contradicts scripture, instantly deems it illogical, because self-contradictory statements cannot both be true.

Well, no it isn't but it's pointless dwelling on this sidebar as it won't go anywhere fast.

You're conflating "reconciled" with "redeemed:

No, I wasn't. Reconciliation has its own definition and redemption is separate. If all are reconciled to God then there's no separation otherwise the term is redundant.

NO ONE who enters the Lake of Fire is forced. All go willingly.

Really? I thought they were "cast" into it...

How, by giving them more chances? :think:

I think that God has already considered all the possibilities, but recognizes that the only solution that is good, compassionate, and loving, is the one that separates those who reject Him from Himself and those that love Him, and from each other, so that they cannot harm either themselves or those that love God.

What difference would it make to you if someone needed seven chances or seventy times seven? Do you honestly think your own happiness could be under threat by someone in the afterlife?

:think:

God gives people every chance they could possibly need while they're here on this earth. It's not His fault if they reject Him in this life.

Eh, some people die at twenty, others live to be over a hundred. It ain't a level playing field in this life and you need to start thinking outside of the simplistic JR. You're not exactly the epitome of compassion and understanding but you're certainly not stupid either.

Arty, imagine a family (father, mother, son, and daughter) where the son is greatly harming his sister, molesting her and threatening to kill her if she tells anyone, and the parents find out. What is the best solution for the parents to take? They love both of their children, but they cannot allow their son to harm their daughter any more.

Ah, this analogy again. Do you think your afterlife paradise would be threatened by rabid atheists or something? C'mon...

 

[JudgeRightly]

You think Freelight thinks he's a God?! [emoji33]:

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?ur...&share_tid=130306&share_fid=4230&share_type=t

 

[JudgeRightly]

Ah, this analogy again. Do you think your afterlife paradise would be threatened by rabid atheists or something? C'mon...

It's not an analogy.

It actually happened to a friend of a friend.

So again I ask, what would you suggest the parents do?

 

[Arthur Brain]

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?ur...&share_tid=130306&share_fid=4230&share_type=t

Um, that's not even showing up properly. Where exactly has Freelight claimed to be a God?

:AMR:

 

[Arthur Brain]

It's not an analogy.

It actually happened to a friend of a friend.

So again I ask, what would you suggest the parents do?

You were using it as one and one that doesn't work unless you're so insecure as to think that people could spoil your paradise? Obviously in such a case the son would have to be removed into care.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Um, that's not even showing up properly. Where exactly has Freelight claimed to be a God?

:AMR:

That's because it links to a post in the Woodshed, which is a subscriber-only room.

Post by Sherman:
Title: Infraction for freelight: Intentional Blasphemy

Linked post:
https://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?p=5260427

 

[JudgeRightly]

You were using it as one and one that doesn't work

Sure it does.

unless you're so insecure as to think that people could spoil your paradise?

Those who hate God, who reject Him, would turn heaven into hell, because of their rebellion against God. So allowing them into heaven won't work.

Obviously in such a case the son would have to be removed into care.

That's the only correct answer. See, even you, Arthur, can be correct every once in a while, just like a broken clock is right twice a day.

Even you, Arty, recognize the need for the son to be removed from the family.

And yet you demand that God should do something different for those who would harm those who love Him.

 

[JudgeRightly]

You were using it as one and one that doesn't work unless you're so insecure as to think that people could spoil your paradise? Obviously in such a case the son would have to be removed into care.

Sure it does.



Those who hate God, who reject Him, would turn heaven into hell, because of their rebellion against God. So allowing them into heaven won't work.



That's the only correct answer. See, even you, Arthur, can be correct every once in a while, just like a broken clock is right twice a day.

Even you, Arty, recognize the need for the son to be removed from the family.

And yet you demand that God should do something different for those who would harm those who love Him.

That is exactly what happened. The son was removed from the family, and banned from ever being in contact with them. He was moved across the country to work on an uncle's farm.

 

[Arthur Brain]

That's because it links to a post in the Woodshed, which is a subscriber-only room.

Post by Sherman:
Title: Infraction for freelight: Intentional Blasphemy

Linked post:
https://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?p=5260427

Eh, he wasn't trying to describe himself as some omnipotent deity in that but hey...

 

[Arthur Brain]

Sure it does.

No, it doesn't, not unless you're incredibly insecure.

Those who hate God, who reject Him, would turn heaven into hell, because of their rebellion against God. So allowing them into heaven won't work.

Maybe I gave you too much credit on the intelligence score. For starters, if everyone is reconciled to God then there wouldn't be any rebellion or hate. Secondly, how many times in life do you suppose you have been treated with kindness and the like from people who aren't "born again"? Even just a kind word or a gesture from a stranger? As before, some of the most kind and compassionate people I've met aren't Christians. Some of the most vile and unloving garbage has been said to me by people that wear that moniker. It's not black and white.

That's the only correct answer. See, even you, Arthur, can be correct every once in a while, just like a broken clock is right twice a day.

Even you, Arty, recognize the need for the son to be removed from the family.

And yet you demand that God should do something different for those who would harm those who love Him.

Um, ya JR. All atheists are rabid and would want to destroy Heaven if given the chance.

:freak:

 

[Arthur Brain]

That is exactly what happened. The son was removed from the family, and banned from ever being in contact with them. He was moved across the country to work on an uncle's farm.

Right, in that situation the daughter needed to be protected. Has squat to do with your bizarre equating of such a thing with your paradise of an afterlife being scuppered by unbelievers and the like...

:AMR:

 

[JudgeRightly]

It would be easier on both of us if you just quote my post and respond with one complete post, instead of not using the QUOTE function at all.



2 Peter 3:9:

ου βραδυνει κυριος της επαγγελιας ως τινες βραδυτητα ηγουνται αλλα μακροθυμει εις υμας μη βουλομενος τινας απολεσθαι αλλα παντας εις μετανοιαν χωρησαι

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Strong's g1014 - Lexical: βούλομαι - Transliteration: boulomai - Part of Speech: Verb - Phonetic Spelling: boo'-lom-ahee - Definition: to will, intend, desire, wish. - Origin: Middle voice of a primary verb; to "will," i.e. (reflexively) be willing. - Usage: be disposed, minded, intend, list, (be, of own) will (-ing). Compare ethelo. - Translated as (count): desiring (5), I want (4), I purposed (2), intending (2), purposed (2), purposing (2), resolving (2), wished (2), desired (1), has chosen (1), Having willed (1), he was willing (1), he wills (1), I desire (1), I have been desiring (1), might choose (1), might resolve (1), resolve (1), resolves (1), We resolve (1), willing (1), wish you (1), You are willing (1), you intend (1).

The Koine word doesn't make the distinction you make. And in addition to that, the verse states the exact opposite of what you're claiming.

"NOT WILLING that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

God doesn't will that any should perish. Yet most will, as stated in scripture:

“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. - Matthew 7:13-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew7:13-14&version=NKJV

Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. - Revelation 20:11-15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation20:11-15&version=NKJV



Why would I worry if I know it will happen?



Forcing those who reject God to acknowledge Him as God is a good thing to do, even if they don't want to.



Again, forcing those to acknowledge God as God is a good thing to do. They aren't worshipping.

Those who love God worship Him willingly.



You can't get around what Revelation 20:11-15 says.

It says that anyone not found in the Book of Life was cast into the Lake of Fire. That means those who reject God.



Certain things will happen, and God will prevail in the end, But that doesn't mean that everything is settled, predetermined. You can choose to respond to my posts, or you could choose to completely ignore everything I write. God did not predestine you to do either, but gave you the ability to do either. God is capable of working around those who reject Him.



Again, God wants all to come to repentance, but clearly not all will, as Scripture says "anyone not found in the Book of Life was cast into the Lake of Fire."



Ok, and?



Several times in scripture, men of God interceded on other men's behalf, and God changed his mind about destroying them.

One of the best examples of this is King Hezekiah:

In those days Hezekiah was sick and near death. And Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, went to him and said to him, “Thus says the Lord: ‘Set your house in order, for you shall die, and not live.’ ”Then he turned his face toward the wall, and prayed to the Lord, saying,“Remember now, O Lord, I pray, how I have walked before You in truth and with a loyal heart, and have done what was good in Your sight.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly.And it happened, before Isaiah had gone out into the middle court, that the word of the Lord came to him, saying,“Return and tell Hezekiah the leader of My people, ‘Thus says the Lord, the God of David your father: “I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; surely I will heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the Lord .And I will add to your days fifteen years. I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for My own sake, and for the sake of My servant David.”’ ” - 2 Kings 20:1-6 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Kings20:1-6&version=NKJV

Hezekiah was going to die. It wasn't because He was wicked, or because he did anything wrong. He was a righteous king. God told Him (through Isaiah) that He was going to die. But Hezekiah prayed to God, and asked Him to spare his life, and God heard him, and BECAUSE of Hezekiah's prayer, He healed him.

So, my question is this: Are you calling God a liar for telling Hezekiah that he would heal him and allow him to live for 15 more years, after He said that he was going to die? Or, as per the Open View, did the circumstances change, and God, being capable, changed His mind about Hezekiah dying?



And yet, even though He is the Saviour of the world, people still reject Him. Which brings us back to my answer to your next question in the list.



Agreed. And yet, people still reject Him.



Good answer.

This is exactly why God cannot save everyone who ever lived, is living, or ever will live. Only those who accept Him.





And yet, people still reject Him.



Let me ask you something. If God were to give everyone who ever lived a second chance after they died to come to Him, why would anyone come to Him in this life? My point being, man is inherently wicked, and would rather not humble himself, and allowing him the opportunity to humble himself after he dies? He'll just put it off until after he dies. And even then, man would still reject God, and become bitter against Him, and harden their hearts in rebellion, and at the point that their "second chance" runs out, they would be even more likely to reject God than they were in this life. Which is counterproductive to 2 Peter 3:9, that all should come to repentance.

So why not a third or a fourth chance then? Why not an infinite number of chances? Because it would allow them to put off their repentance for all eternity, and not fear any consequences for their rebellion, emboldening them to rebel even more, which hardens their heart against God.

Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. - Ecclesiastes 8:11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes8:11&version=NKJV

Normally, I would use that verse in defence of God's criminal justice system. But it applies (perhaps even more so) to God's demand for eternal justice.

Forcing those who reject God to acknowledge Him AS GOD is a very healthy thing to do for someone who rejects Him, just like it is a healthy thing to do (especially for the criminal) to force a criminal to acknowledge that what he has done is wrong.



See above.



See above.



No idea what you're talking about.



I'm making an analogy.

My point is that God declares the destination for the group called "Those who love Him," and He declares another destination for the group called "Those who hate Him."

Everyone is born into the group of "Those who know Him," but after a certain point, when they reach the age of accountability (which is different for everyone), if they rebel against God, they become part of "Those who hate Him," after which they must humble themselves, and recognize that only God can save them. When they do that, they become "Those who love Him," and are eternally sealed.

Those who die before they rebel against God ("Those who know Him") are a sub-group within "Those who love Him."

Now, as far as I know or am aware, the Bible doesn't talk much about those who die before the age of accountability, so what I'm about to say is most likely conjecture, but founded/based in reason and scripture.

It is my belief (and others') that when those who die before the age of accountability are immediately transported to be with God, and given the opportunity to either accept or reject God. How long they are given, I'm not sure, but I would imagine it's sufficient enough, as God is just.

But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more. - Luke 12:48 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke12:48&version=NKJV



And yet, people still reject Him.

Which brings us back to Question 4 and 6.



And yet, people will still reject Him.

[MENTION=20850]FineLinen[/MENTION] I eagerly await your response.

 

[FineLinen]

[MENTION=20850]FineLinen[/MENTION] I eagerly await your response.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ykYwSTv8h8

 

[FineLinen]

[MENTION=20850]FineLinen[/MENTION] I eagerly await your response.

The Japanese master

A great Japanese master received a university professor who came to enquire about wisdom. The master served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring. The professor watched the overflow until he could no longer restrain himself. 'It is overfull. No more will go in!' 'Like this cup,' the master said, 'you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you wisdom unless you first empty your cup?'

 

[oatmeal]

The answer to the question is an absolutely yes ! Many scriptures indicate that, if we receive them honestly. Heres one that teaches it by antithesis 1 Thess 5:9

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

This statement presupposes that God has appointed some to wrath, that word appointed tithémi also means destined, to decree one to be subject to wrath,

All whom God did not choose in Christ and to obtain Salvation by Him, He destined, appointed, decreed them to wrath. This is a work of God, and as it is written Acts 15:18

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

No.

 

[FineLinen]

The answer to the question is an absolutely yes ! Many scriptures indicate that, if we receive them honestly. Heres one that teaches it by antithesis 1 Thess 5:9

9 [FONT=&]For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

This statement presupposes that God has appointed some to wrath, that word appointed [/FONT]tithémi also means destined, to decree one to be subject to wrath,

All whom God did not choose in Christ and to obtain Salvation by Him, He destined, appointed, decreed them to wrath. This is a work of God, and as it is written Acts 15:18

18 [FONT=&]Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.[/FONT]

No! With a capital N!

"God is [the] Saviour of ALL mankind, and ESPECIALLY those who believe/trust in Him. These things command and teach."

 

[beloved57]

No! With a capital N!

"God is [the] Saviour of ALL mankind, and ESPECIALLY those who believe/trust in Him. These things command and teach."

False teaching ! And rejection of Truth