Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

GregoryN

New member
No infinite death was commanded for finite crimes. Hell is only for those who sinned the unforgivable crime, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

IF anyone can be saved, they will be saved.
Only those who can't be forgiven will not be saved because their crime is unforgivable.

They are unforgivable because their crime was to reject YHWH as their GOD and to reject the salvation found in HIS Son by putting their faith and commitment into the delusion that HE was a lying false god, ie a demon, and the most evil person in creation. Since no one can cure themselves from their enslavement to evil and since they have rejected the only source that can indeed save them, ie, the grace and mercy of GOD, they will remain as infinitely evil, eternally evil, people. In other words, infinite hell for infinite crimes.

Their banishment to the outer darkness is an absolute necessity to keep them from despoiling the heavenly state with their hate and will last as long as heaven lasts...

The Bible never speaks of "infinite death". To the contrary, it says death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26). "Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

Neither does Scripture ever speak of any "infinite hell".

As for a crime that "shall not be pardoned", those criminals who are "not pardoned" but serve out their sentence (e.g. 20 years) & then are set free, were "not pardoned", but they didn't spend forever in that "hell" they were imprisoned in. This illustrates how one can "not be pardoned" & also not spend forever in "hell". So just because someone is "not pardoned" does not mean they are lost forever or cannot be saved. Therefore to "not be pardoned" fails as an alleged "proof text" against biblical universalism.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

The context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages."
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
There's no "eternal judgement" in Hebrews. But there is:

6:2 of the teaching of baptizings, besides the imposition of hands, and the resurrection of the dead, and of judgment eonian (CLV) https://studybible.info/CLV/Hebrews 6

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

According to the Scriptures, God is Love Omnipotent, not a mythical deception infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.

:rotfl:

You're officially a waste of time.

Welcome to my ignore list.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Dear Clete: This may be your finest statement! God is indeed just; He is justice in perfection. His essence is NOT justice, His justice flows from His essence which is Love/Spirit/Light/Fire & Saviour. Can you demonstrate the essence of God is justice? Dig deep, my friend! English will be fine.

Nicely unresponsive.

Two can play that game.
 

FineLinen

Well-known member
:rotfl:

You're officially a waste of time.

Welcome to my ignore list.

Dear Clete: Do not be childish! If you cannot answer, just declare it son! Why don't you put me on the "official" ignore list with him? You, however, will never be on my list "official" or no!
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Dear Clete: Do not be childish! If you cannot answer, just declare it son! Why don't you put me on the "official" ignore list with him? You, however, will never be on my list "official" or no!

If you post to something as hysterically stupid as he did, I will not hesitate to do so.

Look, you have to understand that, unlike you, I am not new here. I've been doing this for decades. I know a waste of time when I see it. The very first sentence of his post will be the last thing he ever writes that I'll read. There is no point in wasting time debating Christian doctrine with someone who openly denies that the Bible says what it flatly states.

The text of Hebrews 6:2 is translated into the English phrase "eternal judgment" in the KJV, NKJV, NIV, NASB, ASV, ESV, RSV and pretty much any other English translation you've ever heard of and most of the ones that you haven't ever heard of! And this fool wants to kick things off with, "There's no "eternal judgement" in Hebrews." as though I'm supposed to believe for one second that he knows how to translate the Bible better than anyone who has ever done it for a living since the 1600s.

Give me a break!

He's an absolute disgraceful joke and a waste of my time.

Clete
 

Right Divider

Body part
The text of Hebrews 6:2 is translated into the English phrase "eternal judgment" in the KJV, NKJV, NIV, NASB, ASV, ESV, RSV and pretty much any other English translation you've ever heard of and most of the ones that you haven't ever heard of! And this fool wants to kick things off with, "There's no "eternal judgement" in Hebrews." as though I'm supposed to believe for one second that he knows how to translate the Bible better than anyone who has ever done it for a living since the 1600s.
We get way too many "better translators" like that here!
 

FineLinen

Well-known member

FineLinen

Well-known member
Dear beloved57: Your god has a serious problem! He continues day after day, year after year, age after age allowing a system of ultimate despair (except for the elite elect of course}!

http://www.theworldcounts.com/stories/How-Many-Babies-Are-Born-Each-Day

Many of these babies (born today) will die under the age of 5. How many today & every day worldwide= 15K.

Thank goodness for the escape clause of the "age of accountability" rule!

Wake up beloved57, wake up!
 

ttruscott

Well-known member
Dear Clete: This may be your finest statement! God is indeed just; He is justice in perfection. His essence is NOT justice, His justice flows from His essence which is Love/Spirit/Light/Fire & Saviour. Can you demonstrate the essence of God is justice? Dig deep, my friend! English will be fine.

What is your proof HIS Justice is not in / of HIS essence but a mere offshoot / after thought of HIS essential character? Do you really believe HE will do anything that is not essential to HIS character?
 

FineLinen

Well-known member
What is your proof HIS Justice is not in / of HIS essence but a mere offshoot / after thought of HIS essential character? Do you really believe HE will do anything that is not essential to HIS character?


Dear ttruscott:

Step 1. Find on-line concordance.

Step 2. Find all references that describe God as "IS"

Step 3. Report your findings.

I do not believe the Father does anything contrary to His essence & character. NOTHING!
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Dear ttruscott:

Step 1. Find on-line concordance.

Step 2. Find all references that describe God as "IS"

Step 3. Report your findings.

I do not believe the Father does anything contrary to His essence & character. NOTHING!

Why not simply answer his question?

I have another question that you won't answer....

Which is more fundamental, God's authority or His justice (i.e. righteousness - same thing)?
 

FineLinen

Well-known member
Why not simply answer his question?

I have another question that you won't answer....

Which is more fundamental, God's authority or His justice (i.e. righteousness - same thing)?

Dear Clete: Do not hold your breath!

Your question I will not answer & is more fundamental is?

Nothing is more fundamental than what God is in essence. His Person is described as Love/Light/Spirit/Fire & Saviour in the sacred writings. From His essence (that which He is) flows perfection such as perfect justice most certainly.

I will also add: the perfect justice of the Saviour of the whole world brings change & transformation not unending punishment, with no objective, but more & more & more punishment!
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
Dear R.D.: It grieves my sensitive disposition to hear that!

You, however, will be on my do not ignore list.

Especially=

https://www.biblestudytools.com/1-timothy/4-10-compare.html


1 Timothy 4:10 (YLT) For this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of all men -- especially of those believing.

Unfortunately there are those who almost seem to need there to be a "hell" of suffering for other people in order for their own belief to remain intact. Sadly enough, people can sometimes justify anything under the banner of doctrine no matter how monstrous or insidious.
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
Look boys, Universalism is just flat out stupidity. If your think you language based machinations are going convince anyone who isn't already sitting in the choir loft, you're delusional.

There is a single word that simultaneously forms the foundation of the entire Christian faith and makes Universalism impossible.


Justice

So how about you explain how justice can't be served without an eternal "hell"?

Otherwise, it's just the usual.

:plain:
 
Top