Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

[JudgeRightly]

The Japanese master

A great Japanese master received a university professor who came to enquire about wisdom. The master served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring. The professor watched the overflow until he could no longer restrain himself. 'It is overfull. No more will go in!' 'Like this cup,' the master said, 'you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you wisdom unless you first empty your cup?'

Good thing I'm not a university professor looking for wisdom. I'm just here for the discussion and mental exercise

Still waiting to hear what you respond with!

 

[FineLinen]

Good thing I'm not a university professor looking for wisdom. I'm just here for the discussion and mental exercise

Still waiting to hear what you respond with!

Dear J.R. You have 2 (two) responses now. This will be the third. If you are here for "mental exercise" you will need to find others who are capable of enhancing your spiritual physique! F.L. is too old, "silly" and "childish" for your plan! If you require further response, the Hornet video will appear again.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Dear J.R. You have 2 (two) responses now. This will be the third. If you are here for "mental exercise" you will need to find others who are capable of enhancing your spiritual physique! F.L. is too old, "silly" and "childish" for your plan! If you require further response, the Hornet video will appear again.

There has been no response to this post.

It would be easier on both of us if you just quote my post and respond with one complete post, instead of not using the QUOTE function at all.



2 Peter 3:9:

ου βραδυνει κυριος της επαγγελιας ως τινες βραδυτητα ηγουνται αλλα μακροθυμει εις υμας μη βουλομενος τινας απολεσθαι αλλα παντας εις μετανοιαν χωρησαι

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Strong's g1014 - Lexical: βούλομαι - Transliteration: boulomai - Part of Speech: Verb - Phonetic Spelling: boo'-lom-ahee - Definition: to will, intend, desire, wish. - Origin: Middle voice of a primary verb; to "will," i.e. (reflexively) be willing. - Usage: be disposed, minded, intend, list, (be, of own) will (-ing). Compare ethelo. - Translated as (count): desiring (5), I want (4), I purposed (2), intending (2), purposed (2), purposing (2), resolving (2), wished (2), desired (1), has chosen (1), Having willed (1), he was willing (1), he wills (1), I desire (1), I have been desiring (1), might choose (1), might resolve (1), resolve (1), resolves (1), We resolve (1), willing (1), wish you (1), You are willing (1), you intend (1).

The Koine word doesn't make the distinction you make. And in addition to that, the verse states the exact opposite of what you're claiming.

"NOT WILLING that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

God doesn't will that any should perish. Yet most will, as stated in scripture:

“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. - Matthew 7:13-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew7:13-14&version=NKJV

Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. - Revelation 20:11-15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation20:11-15&version=NKJV



Why would I worry if I know it will happen?



Forcing those who reject God to acknowledge Him as God is a good thing to do, even if they don't want to.



Again, forcing those to acknowledge God as God is a good thing to do. They aren't worshipping.

Those who love God worship Him willingly.



You can't get around what Revelation 20:11-15 says.

It says that anyone not found in the Book of Life was cast into the Lake of Fire. That means those who reject God.



Certain things will happen, and God will prevail in the end, But that doesn't mean that everything is settled, predetermined. You can choose to respond to my posts, or you could choose to completely ignore everything I write. God did not predestine you to do either, but gave you the ability to do either. God is capable of working around those who reject Him.



Again, God wants all to come to repentance, but clearly not all will, as Scripture says "anyone not found in the Book of Life was cast into the Lake of Fire."



Ok, and?



Several times in scripture, men of God interceded on other men's behalf, and God changed his mind about destroying them.

One of the best examples of this is King Hezekiah:

In those days Hezekiah was sick and near death. And Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, went to him and said to him, “Thus says the Lord: ‘Set your house in order, for you shall die, and not live.’ ”Then he turned his face toward the wall, and prayed to the Lord, saying,“Remember now, O Lord, I pray, how I have walked before You in truth and with a loyal heart, and have done what was good in Your sight.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly.And it happened, before Isaiah had gone out into the middle court, that the word of the Lord came to him, saying,“Return and tell Hezekiah the leader of My people, ‘Thus says the Lord, the God of David your father: “I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; surely I will heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the Lord .And I will add to your days fifteen years. I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for My own sake, and for the sake of My servant David.”’ ” - 2 Kings 20:1-6 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Kings20:1-6&version=NKJV

Hezekiah was going to die. It wasn't because He was wicked, or because he did anything wrong. He was a righteous king. God told Him (through Isaiah) that He was going to die. But Hezekiah prayed to God, and asked Him to spare his life, and God heard him, and BECAUSE of Hezekiah's prayer, He healed him.

So, my question is this: Are you calling God a liar for telling Hezekiah that he would heal him and allow him to live for 15 more years, after He said that he was going to die? Or, as per the Open View, did the circumstances change, and God, being capable, changed His mind about Hezekiah dying?



And yet, even though He is the Saviour of the world, people still reject Him. Which brings us back to my answer to your next question in the list.



Agreed. And yet, people still reject Him.



Good answer.

This is exactly why God cannot save everyone who ever lived, is living, or ever will live. Only those who accept Him.





And yet, people still reject Him.



Let me ask you something. If God were to give everyone who ever lived a second chance after they died to come to Him, why would anyone come to Him in this life? My point being, man is inherently wicked, and would rather not humble himself, and allowing him the opportunity to humble himself after he dies? He'll just put it off until after he dies. And even then, man would still reject God, and become bitter against Him, and harden their hearts in rebellion, and at the point that their "second chance" runs out, they would be even more likely to reject God than they were in this life. Which is counterproductive to 2 Peter 3:9, that all should come to repentance.

So why not a third or a fourth chance then? Why not an infinite number of chances? Because it would allow them to put off their repentance for all eternity, and not fear any consequences for their rebellion, emboldening them to rebel even more, which hardens their heart against God.

Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. - Ecclesiastes 8:11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes8:11&version=NKJV

Normally, I would use that verse in defence of God's criminal justice system. But it applies (perhaps even more so) to God's demand for eternal justice.

Forcing those who reject God to acknowledge Him AS GOD is a very healthy thing to do for someone who rejects Him, just like it is a healthy thing to do (especially for the criminal) to force a criminal to acknowledge that what he has done is wrong.



See above.



See above.



No idea what you're talking about.



I'm making an analogy.

My point is that God declares the destination for the group called "Those who love Him," and He declares another destination for the group called "Those who hate Him."

Everyone is born into the group of "Those who know Him," but after a certain point, when they reach the age of accountability (which is different for everyone), if they rebel against God, they become part of "Those who hate Him," after which they must humble themselves, and recognize that only God can save them. When they do that, they become "Those who love Him," and are eternally sealed.

Those who die before they rebel against God ("Those who know Him") are a sub-group within "Those who love Him."

Now, as far as I know or am aware, the Bible doesn't talk much about those who die before the age of accountability, so what I'm about to say is most likely conjecture, but founded/based in reason and scripture.

It is my belief (and others') that when those who die before the age of accountability are immediately transported to be with God, and given the opportunity to either accept or reject God. How long they are given, I'm not sure, but I would imagine it's sufficient enough, as God is just.

But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more. - Luke 12:48 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke12:48&version=NKJV



And yet, people still reject Him.

Which brings us back to Question 4 and 6.



And yet, people will still reject Him.

 

[FineLinen]

False teaching ! And rejection of Truth

Dear St. Paul: Please be advised beloved57 has just announced your words of instruction is "false teaching" with a !

"God is [the] Saviour of ALL mankind, and ESPECIALLY those who believe/trust in Him. These things command and teach."

 

[Clete]

"My bet is that the response won't be 10% as substantive. This FineLinnen guys is new so maybe he'll surprise me.

I'm holding my breath, starting....




NOW!


Clete

Surprise!

If you do not use the quote feature, I cannot tell that you've made any response to my post without combing through the whole thread, which I will not do again.

Use the quote feature or else I'll know you aren't interested in being anything but annoying.


And, so far, I've seen nothing surprising from you in the least.

 

[beloved57]

Dear St. Paul: Please be advised beloved57 has just announced your words of instruction is "false teaching" with a !

"God is [the] Saviour of ALL mankind, and ESPECIALLY those who believe/trust in Him. These things command and teach."

More slander and false teaching. Some are born for destruction 2 Pet 2:12

 

[JudgeRightly]

More slander and false teaching. Some are born for destruction 2 Pet 2:12

I have a feeling you and [MENTION=15399]Nanja[/MENTION] are going to be some of the people to whom God says "Depart from Me, I never knew you."

 

[Clete]

Dear St. Paul: Please be advised beloved57 has just announced your words of instruction is "false teaching" with a !

"God is [the] Saviour of ALL mankind, and ESPECIALLY those who believe/trust in Him. These things command and teach."

Let me save you some time.

B57 is an intentionally and intensely irrational person who IS NOT moved by anything that anyone might say. He does not care what you say or how you say it. He couldn't care less about insults or clever banter or the most eloquent of arguments. He's a believer not a thinker. He does not think about his beliefs nor does he believe it valid for you to think about his beliefs. He does not debate, he does not argue, he does not discuss. The only reason he is here is to detect those who do not believe his insanely self-contradictory doctrine and declare whatever they might say to be "false teaching". That and to partake in the echo chamber of chit chatting about the arbitrary god he had made for himself with those who happen to already agree with him. He is a completely total waste of your time.

Don't miss understand, I'm not trying to tell you not to talk to him. That's obviously entirely you're choice. I'm just saying that, on the chance that you're one who doesn't like being tortured, B57 is sort of the Pit of Despair when in comes to discussing anything he doesn't already agree with.

Clete

 

[FineLinen]

Let me save you some time.

B57 is an intentionally and intensely irrational person who IS NOT moved by anything that anyone might say. He does not care what you say or how you say it. He couldn't care less about insults or clever banter or the most eloquent of arguments. He's a believer not a thinker. He does not think about his beliefs nor does he believe it valid for you to think about his beliefs. He does not debate, he does not argue, he does not discuss. The only reason he is here is to detect those who do not believe his insanely self-contradictory doctrine and declare whatever they might say to be "false teaching". That and to partake in the echo chamber of chit chatting about the arbitrary god he had made for himself with those who happen to already agree with him. He is a completely total waste of your time.

Don't miss understand, I'm not trying to tell you not to talk to him. That's obviously entirely you're choice. I'm just saying that, on the chance that you're one who doesn't like being tortured, B57 is sort of the Pit of Despair when in comes to discussing anything he doesn't already agree with.

Clete

Dear Clete: I do appreciate your desire to save what precious time is left for me on this side of the Glory.

Beloved will know in due time what destined for wrath and destruction will involve (yes for Calvinists as well). He neither knows not the difference between "especially" and "only". I however do, and stand prepared to discuss the koine at his convenience. I further believe that destruction is not an end in itself but a process necessary for change: radical change indeed!

"We all must die and are like water spilled on the ground that cannot be gathered up again, but the Lord does not take away life, instead He devises ways for the banished to be restored."

Hebrew= for the banished to not be banished.

 

[Clete]

Dear Clete: I do appreciate your desire to save what precious time is left for me on this side of the Glory.

Beloved will know in due time what destined for wrath and destruction will involve (yes for Calvinists as well). He neither knows not the difference between "especially" and "only". I however do, and stand prepared to discuss the koine at his convenience. I further believe that destruction is not an end in itself but a process necessary for change: radical change indeed!

"We all must die and are like water spilled on the ground that cannot be gathered up again, but the Lord does not take away life, instead He devises ways for the banished to be restored."

Hebrew= for the banished to not be banished.

Boy, are you a one note band or what?

 

[FineLinen]

Boy, are you a one note band or what?

Toot, toot.

 

[ttruscott]

His false premise is that God will save everyone.

Then he reads the Bible to say that, no matter what it actually says.

Then he asks questions based on his already predetermined and false outcome.

I contend that everyone does this...unless they have direct leading of the Holy Spirit. All interpretation follows faith and conviction...

 

[FineLinen]

I contend that everyone does this...unless they have direct leading of the Holy Spirit. All interpretation follows faith and conviction...

Dear ttruscott: All belief in the Living God must come by way of revelation, as the Holy Spirit leads us into Himself. We see through a glass darkly, nothing is simple in Him. St. Paul writing to Timothy said...

"God is [the] Saviour of all mankind, especially those who believe/trust in Him. Command this & teach this."

Koine for especially = malista

Koine for only = monon

"His false premise is that God will save everyone."

The "false premise" of F.L=

#1. God is Saviour

#2. He is not a potential Saviour: He IS Saviour.

#3. He IS Saviour of all mankind.

#4. He is Saviour "especially" of those who believe/trust in Him.

#5 Especially = malista.

#6 Only = monon.

The passage before us does not say>>>>>

God is Saviour of some of mankind, and only those who trust in Him/ who believe. Command this and teach this.

 

[ttruscott]

"God is [the] Saviour of all mankind, especially those who believe/trust in Him. Command this & teach this."

Mark 3:28 “Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”— 30 because they were saying, “He has an unclean spirit.”

Saved but always unforgiven for an eternal sin?

 

[FineLinen]

Mark 3:28 “Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”— 30 because they were saying, “He has an unclean spirit.”

Saved but always unforgiven for an eternal sin?

My friend: There is no such animal! Sin, yes, "eternal" no! Are you aware that there are exactly two passages of koine that use the word eternal/aidios? Both refer to the Aidios God of Glory. Pantockrator flows in the same vein.

"Of Him, through Him, to Him."

https://biblehub.com/text/mark/3-28.htm

 

[ttruscott]

My friend: There is no such animal! Sin, yes, "eternal" no!

I know what verse 28 says but did you deliberately ignore the exception implied in verse 29: But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of eternal sin.”…eternal: Strong's Concordance G166. aiónios: agelong, eternal
Short Definition: eternal, unending

I think you may have stepped upon the cuff of your fine linen...unless you have authority to change this verse?

 

[FineLinen]

I know what verse 28 says but did you deliberately ignore the exception implied in verse 29: But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of eternal sin.”…eternal: Strong's Concordance G166. aiónios: agelong, eternal
Short Definition: eternal, unending

I think you may have stepped upon the cuff of your fine linen...unless you have authority to change this verse?

There is nothing in koine, nothing, that uses eternal/aidios in any aspect but the aidios God who indeed is eternal.

The following link gives the translations from numerous translators.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/mark/3-29-compare.html

The Scripture in question most certainly is speaking of that which carries a penalty, a most severe penalty! Aionios is NOT eternal, but encompassing an age, whether long or short, but coming to a close.

Young's Literal Translation=

"but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness -- to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;"

The Bible in Basic English=

"But whoever says evil things against the Holy Spirit will never have forgiveness, but the evil he has done will be with him for ever."

Weymouth New Testament=

"but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, he remains for ever unabsolved: he is guilty of a sin of the Ages."

Rotherham=

"But, whosoever shall revile against the Holy Spirit, hath no forgiveness, unto times age-abiding,—but is guilty of an age-abiding sin:"

 

[FineLinen]

There is nothing in koine, nothing, that uses eternal/aidios in any aspect but the aidios God who indeed is eternal.


The following link gives the translations from numerous translators.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/mark/3-29-compare.html

The Scripture in question most certainly is speaking of that which carries a penalty, a most severe penalty! Aionios is NOT eternal, but encompassing an age, whether long or short, but coming to a close.

Young's Literal Translation=

"but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness -- to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;"

The Bible in Basic English=

"But whoever says evil things against the Holy Spirit will never have forgiveness, but the evil he has done will be with him for ever."

Weymouth New Testament=

"but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, he remains for ever unabsolved: he is guilty of a sin of the Ages."

Rotherham=

"But, whosoever shall revile against the Holy Spirit, hath no forgiveness, unto times age-abiding,—but is guilty of an age-abiding sin:"

Jonathan Mitchell N.T. Translation=

http://www.greater-emmanuel.org/jmt/

"Yet whoever may speak injuriously (blaspheme; misrepresent maliciously) into the Set-apart Breath-effect (the Holy Spirit) continues not having a release (not holding a deliverance or a divorce; not possessing a forgiveness) – into the Age. But rather, he continues existing being one caught (or: held) within an eonian effect of a mistake (or: within a result of having missed the target in the eonian realm; in the midst of an age-lasting result of a sin or of error; in union with an effect of failure with respect to things which pertain to the Age)"

 

[Clete]

These debates that come down to how ancient words are translated into English make me laugh.

The alternative translations are almost always wildly convoluted (see the previous post for a beautiful example) and create far more confusion than they could possibly resolve.

As if anyone involved knows how to do the translation better than those who translated everyone's normal everyday English bibles.


Don't misunderstand, the original language is important and, in fact, I wouldn't consider anyone who can't read the book of John in the Greek to even be qualified to be the pastor of a church, but if you cannot make the argument in English from a normal bible that everyone's heard of and is familiar with, then, as far as I'm concerned, you're on very shaky ground, to say the least.

Clete

 

[FineLinen]

These debates that come down to how ancient words are translated into English make me laugh.

The alternative translations are almost always wildly convoluted (see the previous post for a beautiful example) and create far more confusion than they could possibly resolve.

As if anyone involved knows how to do the translation better than those who translated everyone's normal everyday English bibles.


Don't misunderstand, the original language is important and, in fact, I wouldn't consider anyone who can't read the book of John in the Greek to even be qualified to be the pastor of a church, but if you cannot make the argument in English from a normal bible that everyone's heard of and is familiar with, then, as far as I'm concerned, you're on very shaky ground, to say the least.

Clete

Dear Clete: Continue to study your "every day normal English Bibles" & most definitely avoid those that are not "normal". You also should avoid the Aramaic and koine to avoid any confusion & shaky ground!

Rotherham Translation=

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emphasized_Bible

Young's Literal Translation=

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young's_Literal_Translation

Weymouth N.T. Translation=

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weymouth_New_Testament

Bible In Basic English=

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_in_Basic_English

Jonathan Mitchell N.T. Translation=

Over 22 Years of preparation>>>>>>>

http://www.greater-emmanuel.org/jmt/