Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?
- Thread starter beloved57
- Start date
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath. - Isaiah 45:23 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah45:23&version=NKJV
Strong's h7650
- Lexical: שָׁבַע
- Transliteration: shaba
- Part of Speech: verb
- Phonetic Spelling: shaw-bah'
- Definition: swore.
- Origin: A primitive root; propr. To be complete, but used only as a denominative from sheba'; to seven oneself, i.e. Swear (as if by repeating a declaration seven times).
- Usage: adjure, charge (by an oath, with an oath), feed to the full (by mistake for saba'), take an oath, X straitly, (cause to, make to) swear.
- Translated as (count): swore (18), and swore (17), I swore (15), he swore (13), swear (13), has sworn (10), I have sworn (8), he has sworn (5), had sworn (4), I charge (4), and he swore (3), And took an oath (3), have I sworn (3), have sworn (3), that swear (3), to swear (3), adjure you (2), and swear (2), And they swore (2), he had sworn (2), shall swear (2), swears (2), you swore (2), against me are sworn (1), And adjured (1), and he who swears (1), and I swore (1), And I will make you swear (1), And made me swear (1), and made them swear (1), and shall charge by an oath (1), and shall swear (1), and swearers (1), and swears (1), and sworn (1), and to swear (1), And you shall swear (1), cause to swear (1), charge (1), do he took an oath (1), do make you to swear (1), for I swear (1), for they had sworn him (1), had made him swear (1), he made you swear (1), he who swears (1), I swear (1), made me swear (1), of him who swears (1), one that swears (1), solemnly sworn (1), straightly charged the people with an oath (1), sworn (1), that swears (1), that swore (1), Then shall charge (1), Then swore (1), they swear (1), they swore an oath (1), they who swear (1), to those who have sworn (1), we have sworn (1), we swore (1), when I had fed them to the full (1), will swear (1), with an oath (1), with the oath (1), you did swear (1), you have made us swear (1), you have made us to swear (1), you have sworn (1).
For it is written: “ As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.” - Romans 14:11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans14:11&version=NKJV
γεγραπται γαρ ζω εγω λεγει κυριος οτι εμοι καμψει παν γονυ και πασα γλωσσα εξομολογησεται τω θεω
So, it's your position that the translations that have tongues giving praise are in error then? You also have to contend with other passages such as the one I've just posted if you're arguing that such is forced. How does that bring Glory to God? Freely given, absolutely.
How's death "thrown" exactly?
lain:
Not a clue. God probably just picks it up and throws it though.
When the choices are being with God for eternity and being apart from Him for eternity, most will choose to be apart from Him.
I know because I've seen you post. That's how.
You reject a literal reading of Genesis 1:1.
RD replied to this.
Right Divider
Body part
This is the original from which the others are quoting.
Isaiah 45:22-24 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return,
That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
24 Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength:
even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
Those "incensed against him shall be ashamed"
The ones bowing and swearing appear to be those that "Look unto me and be ye saved".
You are trying to force your own meaning on the scripture.
Please welcome a koine professor at graduate level.
https://www.biblestudytools.com/com...rd-pictures/philippians/philippians-2-10.html
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
:AMR:
Oh, so most people will "choose" an eternity of suffering after bending their knee and acknowledging and giving praise will they? Your arrogance is something else.
You do realize that one doesn't have to be a YEC to accept that God created stuff, right?
:AMR:
You didn't. If people are reconciled then they aren't separated JR. It's bonkers to argue otherwise.
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Well no, not at all. You appear to prefer the idea that God forces people to bend their knee and confess that He's Lord. That's up to you but what would bring more glory, praise freely given or forced?
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Right Divider
Body part
I just showed you that it is not everyone that "bends the knee", but only those that "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth:
for I am God,"
:juggle:
Keep on believing what you want. You will simply not allow scripture to speak for itself.
:idunno:
Yes, most people will choose that.
[JESUS]“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.[/JESUS] - Matthew 7:13-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew7:13-14&version=NKJV
Suffering because they no longer have an opportunity to be with their Creator.
Yup. Forcing someone to acknowledge that God is God and they're not is a good thing.
I don't see the word "praise" or "worship" in those passages.
:mock:
Of course I do.
Doesn't make what I said wrong.
As RD said:
Reconciliation is a two-way street. God's fulfilled His part. Now man needs to fulfill his.
And yet, most will still reject God, and be cast into the Lake of Fire.
Arty, you would agree that it would be wrong to kidnap and force someone to live with you for the rest of their life, right?
So then why would you recommend that God should do the same thing to those who don't want to be with Him?
By casting those who reject Him into the Lake of Fire, God is granting them their desire of being separate from Him. Would you rather He violate that desire?
Some here don't want to acknowledge that...
Dear Arthur: you mean there are actually those who refuse to acknowledge..oh never mind. You are having a good time & holding your own. I have other fish to fry and must do it now.
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Well, no, you're quoting a post from Isaiah whereas I was quoting from Romans and also Philippians. It's up to you if you think that every person who bends their knees aren't reconciled just as it's likely that you'll ignore translations that have everyone giving praise to God.
Irony overload.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
"a post" from isaiah :freak:
and you really don't understand why he did that, do you?
Right Divider
Body part
Romans and Philippians also have a CONTEXT which you IGNORE.
Romans 14:10-12 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
The CONTEXT is about BELIEVERS there.
Philippians 2:9-11 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Here Paul is simply using this reference to prove that JESUS IS GOD!
Per Isaiah, it is GOD to whom every knee should bow.
The only irony is that you cannot even see what you do and then claim that others are doing it.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
popsthebuilder
New member
Wow....
John 3: 16. For so greatly did God love the
world
that He gave His only Son, that every one who trusts in Him may not perish but may have the Life of Ages. 17. For God did not send His Son into the
world
to judge the
world,
but that the
world
might be saved through Him.
(So world doesn't pertain to all here)
Sent from my Nokia 6.1 using Tapatalk
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Once again, you have no answer as to how a non physical state can be "thrown".
Um, no. People who don't believe, are agnostics or are of other faiths are not "choosing" what you suggest at all.
Which according to you they would "choose" even after death and a second chance? Get real.
I've yet to meet anyone who thinks that "they're God" JR. If that was supposed to be some silly shot at atheists and the like then they're simply people who think that the likelihood of any deity is unlikely is all. What would bring the greater glory, praise freely given or forced acknowledgement? Put it another way, would you prefer genuine affection or that which was bought?
That's because you ignore any translation that's inconvenient and FL has provided a suitable link on that score.
Are the terms compassion, understanding and empathy in your lexicon? Otherwise, you are indeed arrogant.
It does if you're trying to argue that people who aren't YEC's don't believe that God created the world and the universe.
Again, if God's reconciled the world unto himself then its done. Your argument is like saying an estranged couple have reconciled, yet still live apart with issues.
Then they're not reconciled are they? Yet according to you everyone is...:dizzy:
Sure, just as it would be wrong to force people into interminable suffering. Has it occurred to you that it might just be possible for a loving God to reconcile people without having to "kidnap" them?
See above.
Get a grip.
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
None of this disputes that every knee will bow and every tongue confess. Even if you want to ignore the translations that have everyone giving praise it's not hyperbole unless you want to read that into the passages. It seems you'd rather there's a God who forces people into worship and there being an interminable state of suffering for other people no matter what. Seen it before.
I don't know how God created non-physical (ie, supernatural) beings either. Doesn't mean it can't be done by the Supernatural Creator.
Agnosticism stems from a rejection of God.
The fact is that God does exist, and that you're either with God or against God. There IS NO in-between.
https://youtu.be/NymBTXkzekM
That's reality, Arty.
Reality is that death is the final point at which God says time's up. You chose not to accept My free gift, and rejected Me, and so I will honor your desire, and you not have to be with Me for the rest of eternity.
Arthur, again, if God were to allow any number of chances after death, NO ONE would repent at all, because they would have the option of putting off their repentance until later. It would be unjust for God to do that.
Besides, how many opportunities does one have in a lifetime on this earth to repent? hundreds? thousands? Too many to count.
No, a "second chance" wouldn't get the result God wants, which is that all would repent and turn to Him.
*cough*Freelight*cough*Urantians*cough*
Obviously, freely given. And yet, people will reject God.
I provided the Koine Greek and the Hebrew, which is what most Bibles are translated from. Koine Greek is the original language the New Testament was written in, and Hebrew was the original language the Old Testament was written in.
In terms of accuracy, it ranks higher (the highest being the original manuscripts which have been lost to time) than the english versions, due to them being closer to the originals.
Yes, they are. It is more compassionate for God to separate those who reject Him from those who love Him than it is for God to allow both rejecters and lovers to mingle.
Those who reject God harm themselves and those around them. Those who love God do not.
God understands that those who reject Him don't want to be with Him for all of eternity. So He allows them to depart from Him.
Theistic evolution is an oxymoron.
They think God used evolution to bring about the creatures we see today, and cosmological evolution (including the Big Bang) to bring about the universe.
The problem with that is that "evolution" is an unguided process.
They're saying a guided unguided process resulted in the universe we see today.
It's a self-contradictory position, which, even if it weren't for the fact that it contradicts scripture, instantly deems it illogical, because self-contradictory statements cannot both be true.
Again, if God's reconciled the world unto himself then its done. Your argument is like saying an estranged couple have reconciled, yet still live apart with issues.
You're conflating "reconciled" with "redeemed:
Reconcile:
DICTIONARY
Enter a word, e.g. "pie"
rec·on·cile
ˈrekənˌsīl/Submit
verb
verb: reconcile; 3rd person present: reconciles; past tense: reconciled; past participle: reconciled; gerund or present participle: reconciling
restore friendly relations between.
"she wanted to be reconciled with her father"
synonyms:settle one's differences, make (one's) peace, make up, kiss and make up, bury the hatchet, declare a truce
"her divorced parents have reconciled"
antonyms:quarrel
cause to coexist in harmony; make or show to be compatible.
"a landscape in which inner and outer vision were reconciled"
synonyms:make compatible, harmonize, square, make congruent, balance; raresyncretize
"he is trying to reconcile his religious beliefs with his career"
make (one account) consistent with another, especially by allowing for transactions begun but not yet completed.
"it is not necessary to reconcile the cost accounts to the financial accounts"
settle (a disagreement).
"advice on how to reconcile the conflict"
synonyms:reunite, bring (back) together (again), restore friendly relations between, make peace between; More
pacify, appease, placate, mollify;
formalconciliate
"the news reconciled us"
settle, resolve, sort out, mend, remedy, heal, rectify;
informalpatch up
"the quarrel was reconciled"
antonyms:estrange, alienate
make someone accept (a disagreeable or unwelcome thing).
"he could not reconcile himself to the thought of his mother stocking shelves"
synonyms:accept, come to accept, resign oneself to, come to terms with, learn to live with, get used to
"they had to reconcile themselves to drastic losses"
Redeem:
.
compensate for the faults or bad aspects of (something).
"a disappointing debate redeemed only by an outstanding speech"
synonyms:save, compensate for the defects of, vindicate More
"the whimsical artwork redeems the book"
compensating, compensatory, extenuating, redemptive;
salvific
"the critics are hard-pressed to find anything redeeming about his latest book"
do something that compensates for poor past performance or behavior.
"they redeemed themselves in the playoffs by pushing the Detroit Red Wings to a seventh and deciding game"
synonyms:vindicate, free from blame, absolve
"he fully redeemed himself in the next race"
(of a person) atone or make amends for (error or evil).
"the thief on the cross who by a single act redeemed a life of evil"
synonyms:atone for, make amends for, make restitution for
"you cannot redeem their sins"
save (someone) from sin, error, or evil.
"he was a sinner, redeemed by the grace of God"
synonyms:save, deliver from sin, convert
"who shall redeem these sinners?"
2.
gain or regain possession of (something) in exchange for payment.
"his best suit had been redeemed from the pawnbrokers"
synonyms:retrieve, regain, recover, get back, reclaim, repossess; buy back
"Billy redeemed his drums from the pawnbrokers"
FINANCE
repay (a stock, bond, or other instrument) at the maturity date.
exchange (a coupon, voucher, or trading stamp) for merchandise, a discount, or money.
synonyms:exchange, give in exchange, cash in, convert, trade in
"this voucher can be redeemed at any branch"
pay the necessary money to clear (a debt).
"owners were unable to redeem their mortgages"
synonyms
"they could not redeem their debts"
fulfill or carry out (a pledge or promise).
"the party prepared to redeem the pledges of the past three years"
synonyms:fulfill, carry out, discharge, make good; More
keep, keep to, stick to, hold to, adhere to, abide by, honor
"he made no effort to redeem his promise"
archaic
buy the freedom of.
See above.
NO ONE who enters the Lake of Fire is forced. All go willingly.
How, by giving them more chances? :think:
I think that God has already considered all the possibilities, but recognizes that the only solution that is good, compassionate, and loving, is the one that separates those who reject Him from Himself and those that love Him, and from each other, so that they cannot harm either themselves or those that love God.
God gives people every chance they could possibly need while they're here on this earth. It's not His fault if they reject Him in this life.
Arty, imagine a family (father, mother, son, and daughter) where the son is greatly harming his sister, molesting her and threatening to kill her if she tells anyone, and the parents find out. What is the best solution for the parents to take? They love both of their children, but they cannot allow their son to harm their daughter any more.