Creation vs. Evolution

[iouae]

Nobody is gonna nuke Jerusalem. The west won't because we support them, and Muslims won't because it's too holy. They might try to nuke Israel, but it won't be Jerusalem

No, the "Man of Sin" makes Jerusalem his HQ and could nuke the Muslims if they have a problem with that.

 

[alwight]

You mean like the theory of evolution?

Touché indeed, but I think you'll find that we have only gained more natural knowledge since the theory was published and amazingly it stands even more enhanced, so giving it up now in favour of an ancient supernatural YEC belief would seem to be such a backward step imo.

 

[iouae]

Deep time, dumb luck, viability selection.

Stuart

Right, natural selection

 

[iouae]

Touché indeed, but I think you'll find that we have only gained more natural knowledge since the theory was published and amazingly it stands even more enhanced, so giving it up now in favour of an ancient supernatural YEC belief would seem to be such a backward step imo.

If you gave it up in favour of a YEC belief, that would be a step back

 

[alwight]

If you gave it up in favour of a YEC belief, that would be a step back

To the dark ages.

 

[6days]

If you gave it up in favour of a YEC belief, that would be a step back*

To the dark ages.

Uh.....it was a belief in Biblical creation and the truth of God's Word which ended the so called 'dark ages'.*

 

[6days]

Since you're a big fan of saying that if evolution was correct then we should have been able to see "kind" change within the last 200 years....

Greg.....Stop with the silly and dishonest strawmen arguments. I've never said such a thing.

 

[TheDuke]

The great prediction that evolution has made goes something like this...

This earth is probably like one of innumerable other ones out there in the universe. There have to be innumerable other "goldilocks" planets which could support life.

And if intelligent life could have evolved here, then evolution of intelligent life could equally have occurred innumerable other times elsewhere in the galaxy.

This is how evolutionists think.

I cannot speak for all creationists but I don't think that way. I think, there is only life on earth because God created it here. And there is no suggestion in the Bible that He is trying to save or gather around Him for all eternity, any but mankind.

I think evolutionists ship has sailed. We have developed sensors to detect all known wavelengths of the electromagnetic spectrum. If a broadcast was being sent from anywhere in the universe, we have the instruments to have detected it already. And nothing.

So all the satellites and probes out there looking for life elsewhere in the universe - good luck with that.

If you find ET I might consider becoming an evolutionist.

Thanks for yet again demonstrating the creationist's utter ignorance of evolution.

You truly don't even know what you're talking about, don't you.
Such a sad state of affairs for our species.

No wonder you have difficulties accepting something when all you have is a shrivelled malformed parody of the real thing to work with.


What truly is pathetic isn't even you bias, or ignorance, but the mere fact that you are so far gone, that you're not even interested in an honest discussion, lest it open your eyes to reality....

 

[MichaelCadry]

I know bees exist and that their entire behaviour is very much linked to and necessitated by the material world, so it isn't surprising to me how they evolved including some very specialised and local coding to deal with specific local factors. But by the same token your Creator remains only an apparently non-functional, if overarching figment of your imagination.

In Asia there is a type of large hornet which attacks honey bees in their hives. Native Asian honey bees have evolved a defence in which they mob each hornet so that they can't fly, it overheats and dies.
Introduced honey bees just don't have any defence against hornets. This is clear evidence, in my mind at least, that life has evolved by natural selection to its particular environment and that this is still happening.

An even stranger side of this is that an orchid has evolved in the same region, not just to look like a hornet but to smell like one. When it is spotted by Asian honey bees it is mobbed and pretty much pulled apart, but its pollen ends up on the bees who may well go on to mob another Hornet Orchid.

I know 6days that whatever I say you will still continue to assert your mantra that your God Creator did it and thus you remain unconvinced, but for me the opportunism of this orchid to take advantage of some totally unrelated local factor is clearly only something that a mindless process, like evolution by natural selection, would ever be likely to conjure up.

Dear alwight,

I can't agree with you here. Anything the Asian bees learned at how to render the wasps 'wingless' is put there by God's doing. You just don't understand that you are thinking the bees have some unaccompanied minds of their own. God's angels guide their thoughts and also they guide their fight for survival. God does ALL of these things, and you ALL call it 'nature' or 'innate.' God works in all of His creatures and creations. What do you think He does with all of His time except to tend to them. It's a big job to do all of the things that need to be done in this Universe and Earth, but God does have a Son and many angels, and servants, to help Him out. In this way, He is EVERYWHERE!! Don't sell Him short! Do the wasps bite the little heads off of the bees?? For shame on them! They get what they deserve. They are evil and get what's coming to them. God provides the bees with a mechanism to fight back against their attackers. Hey, if a plant can eat a bug, more power to it. {Venus Fly Trap}. Weirder things have happened.

I've found that I may not be able to read every post on the next few pages, because there is only one me and lots of pages. I will address those to me, for the most part.

Warmest Regards & Cheerio, Matey!!

Michael

 

[MichaelCadry]

SOME WORLD "FIRSTS", FIRST FOUND AT SUMER

In Samuel Noah Kramer’s book History Begins at Sumer he lists 39 “firsts’ in history from the region among which are the first schools, the first proverbs and sayings, the first messiahs, the first Noah and the Flood stories, the first love song, the first aquarium, the first legal precedents in court cases, the first tale of a dying and resurrected god, the first funeral chants, first biblical parallels, and first moral ideas. The Sumerians also essentially invented time in that their sexigesimal system of counting (a system based on the number 60) created the 60-second minute and the 60-minute hour. They also divided the night and day into periods of 12 hours, set a limit on a `work day’ with a time for beginning and ending, and established the concept of `days off’ for holidays. The historian Bertman writes, “The hand of Mesopotamia still determines the hourly length of the traditional workday and even the length of our electronic entertainment (half-hour or hour TV shows) when our workday has stopped” (334). Bertman further notes that the modern day practice of checking one’s horoscope comes from ancient Sumer and that the astrological signs one is born under were first noted and named by the ancient Mesopotamians.

Whenever the Sumerian civilization was first established in the region, by 3600 BCE they had invented the wheel, writing, the sail boat, agricultural processes such as irrigation, and the concept of the city (though China and Indiaalso lay claim to `the first cities’ in the world). It is generally accepted that the first cities in the world rose in Sumer and, among the most important, were Eridu, Uruk, Ur, Larsa, Isin, Adab, Kullah, Lagash, Nippur, and Kish. The city of Uruk is held to be the first true city in the world.

Ur-Nammu wrote the first legal code in Sumer which became the precedent for the much later, and better known, Code of Hammurabi of Babylon. http://www.ancient.eu/sumer/


The early Sumerian cities were characterized by a high degree of social and economic diversity, which gave rise to artisans, merchants, priests, bureaucrats, and for the first time in history, professional soldiers.
http://www.realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Sumer_Iraq_1a.htm

According to Bertman, “In his book, History Begins at Sumer, Samuel Noah Kramer lists 39 `firsts’ in recorded history that can be credited to the Sumerians and the culture they created” (326). Among these `firsts’ are Man’s First Cosmogony and Cosmology, The First Moral Ideas, The First Biblical Parallels, The First `Noah’, `Moses’, and `Job’, Man’s First Epic Literature, The First Case of Library Borrowing, The First Legal Precedent, The First Aquarium, and The First Proverbs and Sayings. Mesopotamia generally, and Sumer specifically, gave the world some of its most enduring cultural aspects and, even though the cities and great palaces are long gone, that legacy continues.

Mesopotamia gave birth to the world’s first cities which were largely built of sun-dried brick.

With them, the Mesopotamians created the world’s first columns, arches, and roofed structures”

This period saw the invention of the wheel (c. 3500 BCE) and writing (c. 3000 BCE), both by the Sumerians, the establishment of kingships to replace priestly rule, and the first war in the world recorded between the kingdoms of Sumer and Elam (3,200 BCE) with Sumer as the victor.
http://www.ancient.eu/Mesopotamia/

The first known writing derives from the lower reaches of the two greatest rivers in this extended region, the Nile and the Tigris. So the two civilizations separately responsible for this totally transforming human development are the Egyptian and the Sumerian (in what is now Iraq). It has been conventional to give priority, by a short margin, to Sumer – dating the Sumerian script to about 3100 BC and the Egyptian version a century or so later.
http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=ab33



It is also said that the Sumerians invented the first oboe-like instrument, and used them at royal funerals.

Although short-lived, one of the first empires known to history was that of Eannatum of Lagash, who annexed practically all of Sumer, including Kish, Uruk, Ur, and Larsa, and reduced to tribute the city-state of Umma, arch-rival of Lagash.

The Sumerians were one of the first known beer drinking societies.

The period c. 2700 – 2300 BC saw the first appearance of the abacus, and a table of successive columns which delimited the successive orders of magnitude of their sexagesimal number system.[43] The Sumerians were the first to use a place value numeral system. There is also anecdotal evidence the Sumerians may have used a type of slide rule in astronomical calculations. They were the first to find the area of a triangle and the volume of a cube.

The almost constant wars among the Sumerian city-states for 2000 years helped to develop the military technology and techniques of Sumer to a high level. The first war recorded in any detail was between Lagash and Umma in c. 2525 BC on a stele called the Stele of the Vultures.

The Sumerians were among the first astronomers, mapping the stars into sets of constellations, many of which survived in the zodiac and were also recognized by the ancient Greeks.[46] They were also aware of the five planets that are easily visible to the naked eye.[47]

They invented and developed arithmetic by using several different number systems including a mixed radix system with an alternating base 10 and base 6. This sexagesimal system became the standard number system in Sumer and Babylonia. They may have invented military formations and introduced the basic divisions between infantry, cavalry, and archers. They developed the first known codified legal and administrative systems, complete with courts, jails, and government records. The first true city-states arose in Sumer,…

Conjointly with the spread of writing, the first formal schools were established, usually under the auspices of a city-state's primary temple.

Finally, the Sumerians ushered in domestication with intensive agriculture and irrigation. Emmer wheat, barley, sheep (starting as mouflon), and cattle (starting as aurochs) were foremost among the species cultivated and raised for the first time on a grand scale. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer

Dear iouae,

Splendid work here!! I'd like to believe it's all true, so I will. If I'm wrong about some of it, at least I am happy! You deserve a great monetary award for bringing all of these things to our attention. Sorry, I am broke!! I just couldn't go without congratulating you on this post. I can't READ and ANSWER each post anymore until I get more caught up. There's like 6 or 7 new pages since last night and each page has about 15 posts, so that's a lot to oversee and read in one night. I'll do my best!! There's many of you, but just one of me. I'm happy that you are on this thread!!

Praise God And May He Enlighten You Even Further!!

Michael

 

[MichaelCadry]

Speak for yourself!

Stuart

Dear Stuu,

You're back!! How are you doing these days? What happened that you've been gone so long?? Did you get banned for a while? Well, it's good to hear from you again. I am swamped or I would chat longer. You have a Wonderful New Year. Are you going to eat, drink, or both?? I may just break down and have a few mixed drinks on New Year's Eve!! I love V-8, so Bloody Mary's are up my alley and good for me.

Much Love Coming Your Way!!

Michael

:wazzup:

 

[Stuu]

I can't agree with you here. Anything the Asian bees learned at how to render the wasps 'wingless' is put there by God's doing. You just don't understand that you are thinking the bees have some unaccompanied minds of their own. God's angels guide their thoughts and also they guide their fight for survival. God does ALL of these things, and you ALL call it 'nature' or 'innate.' God works in all of His creatures and creations. What do you think He does with all of His time except to tend to them. It's a big job to do all of the things that need to be done in this Universe and Earth, but God does have a Son and many angels, and servants, to help Him out. In this way, He is EVERYWHERE!! Don't sell Him short! Do the wasps bite the little heads off of the bees?? For shame on them! They get what they deserve. They are evil and get what's coming to them. God provides the bees with a mechanism to fight back against their attackers. Hey, if a plant can eat a bug, more power to it. {Venus Fly Trap}. Weirder things have happened.

So Michael you aren't interested in the possibility of an interesting explanation for these fascinating tales of the natural world?

You feel you have to jump straight in with a dismissive goddidit? Without even thinking whether there might be an actual explanation?

Alwight has legendary patience in casting all these pearls before you Michael. Your responses to him confirm to me that christianity is the art of actively not knowing.

Of course you could try to give the mechanism by which your goddidit, but you haven't tried, and alwight has given the known mechanism for how it actually happens.

Christianity: an excuse for not knowing.

Stuart

 

[Stuu]

You're back!! How are you doing these days?

Very well thank you.

What happened that you've been gone so long?? Did you get banned for a while?

Intentional blasphemy. Although I'm a bit lost as to how what I posted could possibly be blasphemy. Still, it's not my judgment to make, and when I signed up here they promised their judgements would be arbitrary, and they are.

I have much more creative ways of blaspheming. I think the mods don't really appreciate my full talents here.

Stuart

 

[MichaelCadry]

Since you're a big fan of saying that if evolution was correct then we should have been able to see "kind" change within the last 200 years, tell me what prophecies have been fulfilled in the last 200 years?

Dear Greg,

I know of almost 15 to 20 prophecies that have been fulfilled in the last 42 years, but they are hidden in a way, so that you might well not be able to understand them. God has fulfilled many prophecies of things He said He would do in the latter years. I don't really know how to give you examples, because you won't understand or believe me.

How about an angel told me that when Mt. St. Helens erupted, it was to fulfill what is written in Revelation 8:12KJV, "And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise {from the volcanic smoke}." See Rev. 8:13KJV also. You can find it online if you don't have a Bible. There are a number of things like this that have happened to prepare for Armageddon, which is going to come upon most men with a great surprise, and many will be not ready for it all. Well, I gave you one example when I thought I could give you none. Mt. St. Helens was a rare volcanic eruption for the U.S. Look it up on Wiki or something.

God Be With You!!

Michael

P.S. Greg, I just went back and looked at your question and didn't realize you were asking for 'kind' info as in evolution. I hope you like this anyway, as a prediction coming true within the past 200 years. Sorry. I'll try to get it right the next time.

 

[MichaelCadry]

page 1010. that number is important to me

Dear patrickj,

Why is that an important number?? Patrick, you have very few words to say in each post, I must admit. I can understand your plight though. I want to thank you tons for the good rep you've given me. I just sent more back to you, once again!! It's Christmas: Make It Count!!

Much Love Coming At You!!

Michael

:guitar: :singer: :angel: :cloud9: :angel:
​

 

[MichaelCadry]

Very well thank you.


Intentional blasphemy. Although I'm a bit lost as to how what I posted could possibly be blasphemy. Still, it's not my judgment to make, and when I signed up here they promised their judgements would be arbitrary, and they are.

I have much more creative ways of blaspheming. I think the mods don't really appreciate my full talents here.

Stuart

Dear Stuu,

I am still stuck back on page 1010 catching up on answering posts. I thought I would resume there again 2morrow and chat a post with you here now. It is already 3:30am here and I've got to eat something and go to bed. I may not get to bed until 4am.

I'm glad you are finally back! It hasn't been the same without you, but we've been getting by. So how long did you get banned for for blasphemy? I hope you won't do that again anymore. Be careful. Be worried about God being on your back, not just the mods. Stuu, if you are wrong and there is a God, what in the world are you going to tell Him. Are you going to understand why He sends you to hell? You are playing with REAL FIRE here. Again, be careful.

I hope you are looking forward to the New Year, {and New Year's Eve parties}. I'm going to break down and get a small bottle of Vodka and drink Bloody Mary's with vegetable juice. Then it will be good for me, to boot!! Hey, you're in New Zealand, right? So you will begin your New Year hours before we do, yes? I'm going to watch the festivities on the TV and have a few drinks. I've got to cook New Year's dinner, so I am making a Pork Loin, some Green Italian Bean Casserole, some Blueberry Cream Cheese Pie and some Ambrosia (a delicious fruit and coconut desert}. It's all delicious.

Well, now I am getting hungry. I will chat with you soon. I'm getting hungry AND sleepy. You take good care of yourself and enjoy your day!!

Warmest Regards,

Michael

 

[iouae]

Thanks for yet again demonstrating the creationist's utter ignorance of evolution.

You truly don't even know what you're talking about, don't you.
Such a sad state of affairs for our species.

No wonder you have difficulties accepting something when all you have is a shrivelled malformed parody of the real thing to work with.


What truly is pathetic isn't even you bias, or ignorance, but the mere fact that you are so far gone, that you're not even interested in an honest discussion, lest it open your eyes to reality....

When you recover your usual sunny personality Duke, I would like to continue the discussion since I think you do have a good background in science.

I think pigs have a greater chance of evolving wings and flying than that anyone change their mind on this discussion.
And your arguments were not even that good, so I don't know why you are so sore.

 

[iouae]

Dear iouae,

Splendid work here!! I'd like to believe it's all true, so I will. If I'm wrong about some of it, at least I am happy! You deserve a great monetary award for bringing all of these things to our attention. Sorry, I am broke!! I just couldn't go without congratulating you on this post. I can't READ and ANSWER each post anymore until I get more caught up. There's like 6 or 7 new pages since last night and each page has about 15 posts, so that's a lot to oversee and read in one night. I'll do my best!! There's many of you, but just one of me. I'm happy that you are on this thread!!

Praise God And May He Enlighten You Even Further!!

Michael

Wasn't that history of Sumeria interesting Michael?

If it was not for your thread I would not have thought to research the Sumerians, since my history career came to an abrupt halt in Grade 9 when I had a falling out with the history teacher. All I remembered from Grade 9 was that the Sumerians were "The Cradle of Civilisation". But what a civilisation. We lost so much in the Dark Ages.

I cannot think of a time in history when I would prefer to be alive than now. Great that we have the technology to chat Michael. Bye for now

 

[Stuu]

I'm glad you are finally back! It hasn't been the same without you, but we've been getting by.

Very kind.

Be worried about God being on your back, not just the mods. Stuu, if you are wrong and there is a God, what in the world are you going to tell Him. Are you going to understand why He sends you to hell? You are playing with REAL FIRE here. Again, be careful.

In the 1 in 15 billion chance that I will face your god (I'm grossly overestimating that for the sake of conversation) I will ask it why it killed Uzzah, who was only trying to help steady the Ark of the Covenant on the back of the cart. I will ask it what right it could ever have to judge me if that's it's attitude to my fellow humans.

Wouldn't you like to know the answer to that too? Wouldn't you like to know how innocent Amalekites of all ages and dispositions were worthy of being slaughtered en masse? Wouldn't you like to know how it is right to take away the responsibility of humans for their actions by having an ancient Jew executed by the Romans?

I'd ask that...and more!

I hope you are looking forward to the New Year, {and New Year's Eve parties}. I'm going to break down and get a small bottle of Vodka and drink Bloody Mary's with vegetable juice. Then it will be good for me, to boot!! Hey, you're in New Zealand, right? So you will begin your New Year hours before we do, yes?

Indeed we do. East Cape in the North Island is the first mainland point to see the first sunrise of 2016.

Stuart

 

[alwight]

Dear alwight,

I can't agree with you here. Anything the Asian bees learned at how to render the wasps 'wingless' is put there by God's doing. You just don't understand that you are thinking the bees have some unaccompanied minds of their own. God's angels guide their thoughts and also they guide their fight for survival. God does ALL of these things, and you ALL call it 'nature' or 'innate.' God works in all of His creatures and creations. What do you think He does with all of His time except to tend to them. It's a big job to do all of the things that need to be done in this Universe and Earth, but God does have a Son and many angels, and servants, to help Him out. In this way, He is EVERYWHERE!! Don't sell Him short! Do the wasps bite the little heads off of the bees?? For shame on them! They get what they deserve. They are evil and get what's coming to them. God provides the bees with a mechanism to fight back against their attackers. Hey, if a plant can eat a bug, more power to it. {Venus Fly Trap}. Weirder things have happened.

No, I don't actually belief any of that Michael because I know that evidentially creatures have evolved traits by natural selection and Darwinian evolution. I also know that bees have adapted their behaviour to suit the local conditions, simply because those that didn't... perished.
All of that is evidentially true in the natural world.
What you propose is only your assertions of truth simply because you want a kindly, caring and involved God to be micromanaging the world, but clearly with all the competition, death and cruelty that really exists in the wild then for me that seems highly unlikely, to say the least.

African bees are known to be more aggressive because they have to be to compete, while Asian bees have to deal with aggressive hornets. European and probably many North American bees are kept and protected in hives by humans who just don't keep aggressive bees. Yes even insects have to be adapted to their local environment, or die, that's just how it is.
You can't demonstrate to me that somehow God has chosen to favour bees over hornets. Life goes on by competing with other life and the survivors are those we see today, not those you think are protected by God for some reason.

I've found that I may not be able to read every post on the next few pages, because there is only one me and lots of pages. I will address those to me, for the most part.

Warmest Regards & Cheerio, Matey!!

Michael

Good luck to you Michael but trust me, Darwinian evolution is often quite simple in principle but sometimes the details are often complex, bizarre, heartless and cruel. I anyway sense no caring involved supernatural divinity is running the show. :nono: