Could God forgive without crucifixion?

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Ben Masada

New member
Cross Reference said:
Try to think that while God does forgive our sins He does deliver us from their consequences.
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That's not that easy CR. All God's blessings are conditional. Jesus himself said once that at his time when one went to the Temple to plea for the forgiveness of his sins, he was suggested to go to whom he had offended and set things rights with his brother and, only then, return to his prayers at the Temple. According to the law of cause and effect, we must suffer for the consequences thereof. Only universal salvation is free. Personal salvation requires the works due to the obedience of God's Law. BTW, Jesus himself said that, to escape hell-fire, we must listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31)
 
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Ben Masada

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genuineoriginal said:
Leviticus 5:10 And he shall offer the second for a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him.
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I am talking about personal salvation through the Law from the Decalogue and not ritual laws added by Moses as Pichuach Nephesh, the system to make the Exodus easier. HaShem never commanded laws about animal sacrifices. So, ritual laws are not God's Laws but laws of man. Read Jeremiah 7:22 to understand.

If you don't believe God forgives sin, then you must believe God is a liar.
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That's not so. You are the one implying that Jesus was a liar for having sent that man who was praying for his salvation in the Temple and was reminded himself that he had offended his brother. So, Jesus told him to go to get forgiveness from he whom he had offended or no forgiveness otherwise. (Mat. 5:23,24)

Jesus, God's only begotten Son, died on the cross to shed the blood of the new covenant for the forgiveness of our sins. Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
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Not true. That was not the reason for the sheding of his blood but because his disciples were acclaiming him king of the Jews in Jerusalem. (Luke 19:37-40)

This is the same new covenant prophesied through Jeremiah.Jeremiah 31:31-34. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
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As I can see, you really do not like the Prophets of the Most High. Now, you are going against the Lord Himself because He said to Jeremiah that the New Covenant was made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. There is no mention of Gentiles here. Now, the quote for you to read is Deuteronomy 4:2.
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Ben Masada

New member
Totton Linnet said:
He GAVE us His life, He poured it out upon us
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The Lord Almighty instructed His Prophets to teach us that no one can die for the sins of another, but that each one must die for his own sins. (Jeremiah 31:30; Ezekiel 18:20) BTW, the Lord never commanded that any kind of sacrifices of any kind be part of the religion of Israel. (Jeremiah 7:22)
 
genuineoriginal

genuineoriginal

New member
Ben Masada said:
HaShem never commanded laws about animal sacrifices. So, ritual laws are not God's Laws but laws of man. Read Jeremiah 7:22 to understand.
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יהוה is God and He did command the laws about animal sacrifices.

Leviticus 1:1-4
1 And the Lord (יהוה) called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the Lord, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the Lord (יהוה).
4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.​

 
genuineoriginal

genuineoriginal

New member
genuineoriginal said:
If you don't believe God forgives sin, then you must believe God is a liar.
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Ben Masada said:
You are the one implying that Jesus was a liar for having sent that man who was praying for his salvation in the Temple and was reminded himself that he had offended his brother. So, Jesus told him to go to get forgiveness from he whom he had offended or no forgiveness otherwise. (Mat. 5:23,24)
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You seem to be confusing asking forgiveness from someone you offended by sinning against them with asking forgiveness (through burnt offerings) from God for sinning against Him.

Ben Masada said:
As I can see, you really do not like the Prophets of the Most High. Now, you are going against the Lord Himself because He said to Jeremiah that the New Covenant was made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. There is no mention of Gentiles here. Now, the quote for you to read is Deuteronomy 4:2.
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Of course there is no mention of the Gentiles here.
Jesus was sent during the end of the 70 week prophecy of Daniel 9.
Those 70 weeks (490 years) were set aside for the children of Israel (house of Judah and the house of Israel) to stop messing around and actually repent.
The Gentiles were not brought into the New Covenant until after those 490 years had ended (shortly after Stephen was stoned to death).
Once the 490 years had ended, Peter was sent to Cornelius to witness the first Gentiles that were brought into the New Covenant, which is the mystery Paul wrote about.

Ephesians 3:6
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:​

 
heir

heir

TOL Subscriber
Predi said:
I used to love this metaphorical story about a court trial... we are the defendant, God is the judge, the devil - prosecutor - and we have no lawyer - so we're hopeless, we lose, get sentenced, and then Jesus comes and takes the punishment for us so we are let go.

Then I realized if this metaphor says how it really is in the story of salvation... God doesn't really forgive us anything. The guilt is still punished and someone has to suffer.

Jesus did forgive some people before crucifixion (for example in Luke 7:48), God did that many times in Old Testament, too (e.g. 2 Samuel 12:13).

My question is - why can't God just... forgive me all of my sins? Without the sacrifice of Jesus? Just because God is good and forgiving? We aren't taught in the Bible to forgive with any substitute sacrifice, right? What is the problem then?
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The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23 KJV). Someone had to pay for it (Romans 5:12 KJV) and Christ took the payoff (Romans 4:25 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, 2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV)!
 
Predi

Predi

New member
heir said:
The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23 KJV). Someone had to pay for it (Romans 5:12 KJV) and Christ took the payoff (Romans 4:25 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, 2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV)!
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So if Christ paid the price of death, why do we still die?
 
Predi

Predi

New member
heir said:
The flesh dies. We have eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. He is our life (Galatians 2:20 KJV, Colossians 3:1-4 KJV).
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Christ also died in flesh. If His death was a payment for our sins, logically, we're not supposed to die in flesh anymore.
 
heir

heir

TOL Subscriber
chrysostom said:
only if you have repented
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Stop trying to spoil others through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. When does it say we were forgiven all trespasses? When we were quickened together with Him, that's when!

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Colossians 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
 
heir

heir

TOL Subscriber
Predi said:
Christ also died in flesh. If His death was a payment for our sins, logically, we're not supposed to die in flesh anymore.
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Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

What is the gospel that is going to get you out of the grave?
 
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