Could God forgive without crucifixion?

[Lon]

Just got back in from feedin' horses and edited that last post.

Please reread it

Just a bit of addition. Your 'no education' against my "education and then some", and in multiples? Sorry, it might work for you, but not for me. Its a bit too arrogant and big for your britches. Worse? I think you genuinely do know better from our previous conversations.

Two points in passing: 1) I wasn't necessarily talking about you as a cultist so you probably jumped on an offense 2) this particular is an odd one to have latched on to. There isn't really anything for you to make a big deal about on this particular. It isn't worth the holy ground accusation or a bash on another's education. Not sure why you thought it was. Pick something else. I'll disagree here and suggest you let it go. It isn't a point where one's doctrine or theology stands or falls. All ground concerning the Lord is holy ground, so I don't contest that point, but it looks a bit like a windmill attack to me. I might just let you 'conquer' it while looking at you out the window and drinking coffee, Don Quixote.

 

[genuineoriginal]

No, it WAS a legal payment.

It was a show of obedience, not a legal payment.
Jesus the Messiah shed His own blood to confirm the New Covenant, not to make a payment for someone else's sins.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Just a bit of addition. Your 'no education' against my "education and then some", and in multiples? Sorry, it might work for you, but not for me. Its a bit too arrogant and big for your britches. Worse? I think you genuinely do know better from our previous conversations.

Two points in passing: 1) I wasn't necessarily talking about you as a cultist so you probably jumped on an offense 2) this particular is an odd one to have latched on to. There isn't really anything for you to make a big deal about on this particular. It isn't worth the holy ground accusation or a bash on another's education. Not sure why you thought it was. Pick something else. I'll disagree here and suggest you let it go. It isn't a point where one's doctrine or theology stands or falls. All ground concerning the Lord is holy ground, so I don't contest that point, but it looks a bit like a windmill attack to me. I might just let you 'conquer' it while looking at you out the window and drinking coffee, Don Quixote.

Sorry but none of this flies.

I pointed out your error and how you got it.

Even pointed out how to remedy your dilemma.

That being admitting your error and accepting I might know something you don't.

As far as your points in passing you were being quite dishonest about my past and present position on your education, and your thinking I had some knee jerk reaction to anything you post is comical to say the least.

 

[freelight]

I'd look again at a claim for 'conditions'...........

I'd look again at a claim for 'conditions'...........

What we are taught in the bible is to be ready to forgive if the offender repents. If he repents seven times forgive him seven times, if seventy then seventy, but never are we taught to forgive someone if they've not repented.

I addressed this in a former post here, with textual proofs. (I recommend reading this before responding to my points as a whole). There is only one verse that mentions about forgiving IF A PERSON REPENTS,....while all others do not have this 'requirement',...and do not even mention it. Therefore it cannot be assumed that in all cases a person must repent, and I explain reasons why in my linked blog-post. Not to split hairs here, but whether one repents or not is a situational issue which may affect certain cases, but I think there is more to forgiveness, and from our own point of view it is liberating us from the clutches of unforgiveness (which brings about its own dis-ease)....so that we are 'freed' when we forgive, and we freely forgive because God freely forgives us, and we forgive as we are forgiven in certain cases where we know another has forgiven us. Therefore a dynamic of variance exists in how the principle is carried out in various situations.

 

[Lon]

Sorry but none of this flies.

We haven't even gotten into anything yet. The ONLY thing on the table was a suggestion that you pull back a bit on the banter.

I pointed out your error and how you got it.

:nono: Let's look (though, again, I'd prefer you to actually show yourself a worthy workman for debate/discussion):

In Genesis, Adam and Eve were told they would surely die. They didn't believe it and neither do/might we.

Gen 3:3 but God said, 'You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'"
Gen 3:4 But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die.
Gen 3:5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
Gen 3:6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate.

So, she ate it. Did she believe she'd die? Adam saw what happened with Eve, took the fruit. Were both of them under the impression that 'they surely didn't die' as the serpent said? Is this really what you wanted to argue about? I said a few things about cultists and problems with their thinking. Why didn't you jump all over that? Are you sure this is what you wanted to make such a fuss over???
What in the world would it have had to do with my seminary education? What is so monumental that it would cast dispersions on it? I don't believe it does, but if you do, knock yourself out.

Even pointed out how to remedy your dilemma.

That being admitting your error and accepting I might know something you don't.

No. Not very clearly.

As far as your points in passing you were being quite dishonest about my past and present position on your education, and your thinking I had some knee jerk reaction to anything you post is comical to say the least.

Fine, have a comical rabbit-trail. You have, at times, a need to banter that seems to me 'for no apparent reason.

 

[Ben Masada]

I used to love this metaphorical story about a court trial... we are the defendant, God is the judge, the devil - prosecutor - and we have no lawyer - so we're hopeless, we lose, get sentenced, and then Jesus comes and takes the punishment for us so we are let go.

God has nothing to do with the crucifixion of Jesus. Jesus was crucified because his disciples were acclaiming him king of the Jews in Jerusalem. This was considered an act of insurrection against Rome. Insurrection was punished in Israel with crucifixion. (Luke 19:37-40)

Then I realized if this metaphor says how it really is in the story of salvation... God doesn't really forgive us anything. The guilt is still punished and someone has to suffer.

This is more to the point. God doesn't really forgive us anything. Somehow, we are always punished for our sins. It is called the law of cause-and-effect. But the Lord does give us ways out of the sinful way we are trailing. As for instance, repentance and obedience of His Law. (Isaiah 1:18,19)

Jesus did forgive some people before crucifixion (for example in Luke 7:48), God did that many times in Old Testament, too (e.g. 2 Samuel 12:13).

The point in the case of 2 Samuel 12;13 was to teach that once dead, no one will ever return from the grave. King David knew better

My question is - why can't God just... forgive me all of my sins? Without the sacrifice of Jesus? Just because God is good and forgiving? We aren't taught in the Bible to forgive with any substitute sacrifice, right? What is the problem then?

God can and does every thing but one, the thing you wish He did or should have done. Besides, God's blessings are conditional. We must do our part which is obedience of the Law. Jesus himself said: If you to the Temple to plea for your salvation and suddenly you are reminded to have offended your neighbor, you must leave all behind and go set things right with him or her and only then return to the Temple. (Mat. 5:23,24)
Jesus' crucifixion did not happen for the forgiveness of our sins because the Prophets of the Most High had been instructed to teach that no one can die for the sins of another. (Jeremiah 31:30; Ezekiel 18:20)

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

We haven't even gotten into anything yet. The ONLY thing on the table was a suggestion that you pull back a bit on the banter.


:nono: Let's look (though, again, I'd prefer you to actually show yourself a worthy workman for debate/discussion): Gen 3:3 but God said, 'You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'"
Gen 3:4 But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die.
Gen 3:5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
Gen 3:6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate.

So, she ate it. Did she believe she'd die? Adam saw what happened with Eve, took the fruit. Were both of them under the impression that 'they surely didn't die' as the serpent said? Is this really what you wanted to argue about? I said a few things about cultists and problems with their thinking. Why didn't you jump all over that? Are you sure this is what you wanted to make such a fuss over???
What in the world would it have had to do with my seminary education? What is so monumental that it would cast dispersions on it? I don't believe it does, but if you do, knock yourself out.

No. Not very clearly.


Fine, have a comical rabbit-trail. You have, at times, a need to banter that seems to me 'for no apparent reason.

It isn't that hard to figure out.

You stated Adam didn't believe God.

Yet scripture says he did.

It is the same vanity that caused Adam to hearken to his wife, that stops you from admitting your error in trying to buy what is not for sale.

1 Timothy 2:14 |
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Genesis 3:17
And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

 

[Lon]

It isn't that hard to figure out.

You stated Adam didn't believe God.

Yet scripture says he did.

It is the same vanity that caused Adam to hearken to his wife, that stops you from admitting your error in trying to buy what is not for sale.

I've seen your take. Basically it is that Eve was deceived, Adam was not and that he ate simply to be with his wife in consequence. My point was that Satan lied "you will not surely die.' "If" they had thought they would, it doesn't seem reasonable or likely that they would have eaten the fruit. "This will kill you, it is poison." Would you eat it? :nono: Somehow, Satan convinced them they weren't going to die. I don't really care what you think of my prowess, Mind. You go ahead and feel full of yourself.

You are bandying over who was deceived rather than "why Jesus had to die on the cross."

 

[Predi]

Percentages. If 99 out of 100 have the same answer, I can rest a little easier. If I am the one with a different answer? Some on here are so stinking confident with that, it is beyond reasonable or intelligent to me.

I could find lots of examples when one in a million is right.

I'll give you one. I was born in a country that is close to 100% Roman Catholic.

At the same time, polls show that 60% of citizens disagree which major Catholic doctrines (which kicks them out of Church automatically, they're just oblivious to it).

In my teenage years I didn't know anyone who wasn't Catholic. But I began questioning some doctrines and started asking people questions.

None of them had answers, many of them didn't even try to answer, and some of them got offended that I dare to ask such questions.

At the same time I became stigmatized as the heretic, possessed, weird. After some time I started questioning my sanity.

Well, I survived, and it turned out with lots of things I was the only right among them all.

I hope right now you can understand why I hate statistics

Well for one, I think I've given 3 points among a few others, that 1) demand it is logical and 2) has it making very good sense. Are either of us stupid? No, but perhaps one isn't as careful as the next.

Careful... nicely said The way I see it most of societies today don't encourage too much thinking. Especially in religion and politics. If you're born Baptist and republican, you'll die this way, just because the thought of rebellion will scare the juice out of you - as it might perhaps mean losing much of your friends and family.

At the same time such "not-thinking" people may win the Nobel prize or invent something that will change the world.

I don't quite understand it, but it seems for most people, no matter how hard they try to be "careful" then won't change some of their thinking patterns.

I'm sure we all have patterns we brought from our environment that we keep without questioning, and it's normal, our brain would die of stress if we questioned every single thing. The important question is - are the patterns you have helping your life or ruining it?

Percentages. If 99 out of 100 have the same answer, I can rest a little easier.

Again, I hope you know now these numbers don't matter to me.

I can talk about arguments, not about how many people believe it.

You are questioning the very act, so 'we' is inclusive as to the need of the death of Jesus Christ. See John 16:7

At this point, I'd warn about giving the one in 99 answer. For what it is worth, it definitely doesn't look right and I tend to do well on these. For what it is worth.

I'm extremely careful with making doctrines just from Gospels, especially if there's not a word about them in Paul's letters, which I believe are the only part of the Bible 100% relevant to us.

 

[Cross Reference]

I'm extremely careful with making doctrines just from Gospels, especially if there's not a word about them in Paul's letters, which I believe are the only part of the Bible 100% relevant to us.

Ah, now we understand. Thank you.

Another one who relegates Jesus to second class heavenly citizenship.

 

[Clete]

So if the offender doesn't repent, we are supposed to hold the grudge??? Sorry, I don't see that in the Bible.

Who said anything about a grudge?

Romans 12:19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.

Hebrews 10:30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”[e] says the Lord.[f] And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”[g] 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

It's not about holding a grudge, its about justice!

Do you think it wrong to want justice?

Psalm 37:30 The mouth of the righteous speaks wisdom, And his tongue talks of justice.

Psalm 58:10 The righteous shall rejoice when he sees the vengeance; He shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked,​

The saints in Heaven eagerly await God's vengeance...

Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”​

The point being that it is GOD's place to avenge, it is God who will see justice done. God has delegated authority to the governing official to enact and enforce criminal justice but that isn't the half of what we're talking about here. You asked a question that is absolutely critical to have a coherent answer too and you intimated that it was related to our forgiving others as though there were some discontinuity or contradiction between the two. And if your doctrine about forgiveness is right then, not only does it make sense for the question to come up but there is no answer! Such questions should be allowed to shine light on potential errors that we've made in our doctrine. Why ask the question if you aren't willing to think through the implications of the answer?

Forgive 77 times if he repents - these words were spoken before the Gospel of Grace was revealed. There was no known reason to forgive f

Besides, I would see it as a minimum requirement. Forgive always if he repents - at least that - but why not forgive without waiting?

First of all, it makes no difference what you see, it only matters what's actually there in the bible. The teaching here cannot be any clearer than it is. If you disagree with it, its because of poor teaching that you've received.

The reason you don't forgive without waiting is because it is unjust (i.e. unrighteous - same thing) to do so. Not only that but it helps to destroy the one you are forgiving, at least in this life if not in the next.

Further, in regards to pre vs post grace. Paul didn't teach proactive pre-forgiveness either!

I Corinthians 5:9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”​

And finally, it is not our place to forgive in all circumstances, even when the offense is committed against us. Some offenses are more than just sins, they are also crimes. A person who commits a crime against us, even if he repents and is forgive by us, must still face the criminal penalty for his crime for the sake of the society in which he lives. And of course any offense against is likely also to be a sin against God and we have absolutely no authority whatsoever to forgive sins against God, that's purely God's territory.

Are we justified "freely, by His grace" or because we repented?

And how can we have peace if God's forgiveness depends on our repentance? How can we be sure that our repentance is correct??

Well, the word repent has a range of meanings in this context. In so far as our salvation is concerned, repentance refers to our calling upon the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of our sin. The act of belief is the act of repentance.

Romans 10:8 ...“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”​

In regards to individual sins, however, the word repent simply means to be sorry or regretful or to change one's mind for the better.

The Hebrew word for repent is...

Nacham (Strong's H5162)

and the Greek...

metanoeō (Strong's G3340)

There are other words that are translated "repent" but these are the ones pertinent to our discussion.


Incidentally, since I brought up original languages here. In the Hebrew, justice and righteousness are the same word...

tsedeq (Stong's H6664)

tsĕdaqah (Strong's H6666)


Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Predi]

Ah, now we understand. Thank you.

Another one who relegates Jesus to second class heavenly citizenship.

I'd appreciate it if no false information was spread about me. I never claimed anything you said. The Word is God and I never doubted that.

 

[Totton Linnet]

He GAVE us His life, He poured it out upon us

 

[Cross Reference]

I'd appreciate it if no false information was spread about me. I never claimed anything you said. The Word is God and I never doubted that.

And I would appreciate it if you did likewise!

 

[genuineoriginal]

God doesn't really forgive us anything. Somehow, we are always punished for our sins.

Leviticus 5:10 10 And he shall offer the second for a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him.​

If you don't believe God forgives sin, then you must believe God is a liar.

Jesus' crucifixion did not happen for the forgiveness of our sins

Jesus, God's only begotten Son, died on the cross to shed the blood of the new covenant for the forgiveness of our sins.

Matthew 26:28 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.​

This is the same new covenant prophesied through Jeremiah.

Jeremiah 31:31-34 31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.​

 

[Cross Reference]

Try to think that while God does forgive our sins He does deliver us from their consequences.

 

[Predi]

Who said anything about a grudge?

I simply don't see another option. When someone wrongs me, I have 2 choices, forgive or hold a grudge.

It's not about holding a grudge, its about justice!

Do you think it wrong to want justice?

I think it's wrong not to want justice.

But it's a totally different story demanding right wages for hard workers and wishing a murderer would rot in hell.

I do not want to be held responsible for all bad things I did - and thank God I'm not - why would I want it for others?

The saints in Heaven eagerly await God's vengeance...

I believe they're not waiting anymore.

Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”​

Why ask the question if you aren't willing to think through the implications of the answer?

I am willing, why are you saying I'm not?

First of all, it makes no difference what you see, it only matters what's actually there in the bible.

Of course. But I hear that all the time from people having totally opposite ideas. I think a little humility is due here. Bible is a very difficult book.

The teaching here cannot be any clearer than it is. If you disagree with it, its because of poor teaching that you've received.

I believe the teaching is clear on all things, but our thinking is heavily biased by lots of factors. Again, I think we all should be a bit humble here.

Further, in regards to pre vs post grace. Paul didn't teach proactive pre-forgiveness either!

In the passage you quoted I can't see a word about forgiving.

Forgiving is not pretending nothing happened or that there's no consequences.

Corinthians shouldn't be close to people doing certain stuff for some reasons but who said they shouldn't forgive them?

We lock a rapist away for years, but not because we're mad at them and want revenge; we want to make it impassible for them to hurt more people.

A person who commits a crime against us, even if he repents and is forgive by us, must still face the criminal penalty for his crime for the sake of the society in which he lives.

Amen here

 

[Predi]

And I would appreciate it if you did likewise!

Where didn't I?

 

[Cross Reference]

Where didn't I?

Your post #4387 "Our Triune God". Where's the "rant" that brought on your untoward remarks?

 

[Predi]

Your post #4387 "Our Triune God". Where's the "rant" that brought on your untoward remarks?

Are you sure you're not confusing me with someone else?