Could God forgive without crucifixion?

S

Scottune

New member
Yeah its weird that god who makes the rules and what would satisfy him chose the death of his son to appease him. To cover our sins. A innocent perfect man takes the hot for all sin yet people pay for their sins if they dont accept him as savior and lord. So sin was paid for two times. Jesus did forgiven the crippled man lowered through the roof and he never even asked. Neither did the adulterous woman. He was just dishing out forgiveness all over the place and even his last words were forgive them so I guess he was able to forgive just cause hes god and it seems to be unconnected to his death. Who are we to tell god who he can and cant forgive. This is most likely all wrong thinking cause I can hear all the scriprural rebuttals in mind going off but it is a fair question this guy is asking. Thanks for posting such a honest post cause no one wants to face their deepest questions in fear of being a job.
 
Totton Linnet

Totton Linnet

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Ben Masada said:
The Lord Almighty instructed His Prophets to teach us that no one can die for the sins of another, but that each one must die for his own sins. (Jeremiah 31:30; Ezekiel 18:20) BTW, the Lord never commanded that any kind of sacrifices of any kind be part of the religion of Israel. (Jeremiah 7:22)
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If what you say is true then every man sins/every man dies....there is no hope at all for mankind
 
jamie

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Predi said:
I'm pretty sure you did not find this phrase in the Bible.
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Not the phrase, the concept. Paul explained that the law is spiritual (Romans 7:14). The penalty for violating a spiritual law is spiritual death. Jesus said not to fear those who who can kill the body but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in ghenna. (Matthew 10:28) Ghenna represents a trash fire where refuse is burned.

Our physical body is simply a tent, a temporary housing. (2 Corinthians 5:1) But there is a second death. (Revelation 20:14)
 
Clete

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Predi said:
I simply don't see another option. When someone wrongs me, I have 2 choices, forgive or hold a grudge.
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Then you have other emotional issues that need dealt with that have nothing to do with forgiveness. Either that you don't understand what forgiveness is. I'd wager you don't actually forgive many of the people you think you forgive because you still expect those people to answer to God. And that's all I'm suggesting. There is no need to "hold a grudge" where the offender lives rent free in your mind 24/7 and where you eventually become embittered and angry. The biblical teaching is that vengeance belongs to God and we aught to look forward to that vengeance. If someone has wronged you, don't let their offense further harm you by becoming bitter. Instead, turn the situation over to God who is the righteous judge of all the Earth and will not permit the scales of justice to ever be unbalanced forever.


I think it's wrong not to want justice.

But it's a totally different story demanding right wages for hard workers and wishing a murderer would rot in hell.
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Rot in Hell OR become saved! Somehow the scales of justice will be brought to balance! The murder will pay his due if he does not allow Christ to pay it for him and it is not just of you to let him off the hook. It does not help you and it may help prevent him from becoming saved.

I do not want to be held responsible for all bad things I did - and thank God I'm not - why would I want it for others?
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Well someone's going to be! If not you then Christ and that's justice! That's why it had to be God who died. Just another man could have died in your place, if he were innocent, but then the whole rest of the world would be lost and even an innocent man has no power to take up his own life again after having laid it down for your sake. The death of the Divine was all that could suffice to both pay the sin debt owed by the whole world and to defeat death in resurrection.

And you aught to want it for others for the reason Paul describes in I Corinthians...

I Corinthians 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named[a] among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. ​

On what planet does that sound similar to the doctrine of forgiveness you currently believe?

I believe they're not waiting anymore.

Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”​
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That is irrelevant, incorrect but irrelevant. The point is that saints in Heaven, in the presence of God Himself, want to see vengeance! They aren't all, "forgive and forget", "judge not", etc. like nearly every mindless Christian pastor in the country.

I am willing, why are you saying I'm not?
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Because you seemed to have accepted my answer to your question but wanted to squirm on the logical implications of it.

You want to be nicer than God is! God doesn't tell us (in either the New or the Old Testament) to forgive people who don't show any evidence of being sorry for what they did and yet you (not really you but whomever it is that taught you this mumbo-jumbo) that we're supposed to just offer anyone and everyone blanket forgiveness whether they're repentant or not.

Of course. But I hear that all the time from people having totally opposite ideas. I think a little humility is due here. Bible is a very difficult book.
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No it isn't! I mean, sure, certain issues are more complex than others but this is not one of the difficult ones. You can't find anything in the bible that teaches that we aught to offer forgiveness sans repentance. And the fact that you believe otherwise is precisely what brought your mind to detect an incongruity with the way God deals with offenses vs the way you believe that God wants us to deal with them. And there in fact would be a genuine incongruity if you were right about this blanket forgiveness idea, but you're not. The only place an incongruity actually exists is in your doctrine. The question is whether you are willing to alter it.

I believe the teaching is clear on all things, but our thinking is heavily biased by lots of factors. Again, I think we all should be a bit humble here.
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This comment is self-contradictory. Either that or you are suggesting that there is some sort of fundamental lack of ability on our part to understand God's "clear teaching". If that's the case, why bother asking the question? I mean, if you don't believe yourself capable of understanding the answer, why ask the question? In fact, if your mind isn't clear enough to understand the answer, how was it ever clear enough to have formulated to question in the first place?

In the passage you quoted I can't see a word about forgiving.
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Look, you have to make a better effort to stay on the same page here with me. I'm not saying anything complicated or confusing. You attempted to negate the words of Jesus Christ regarding forgiving people because it was "pre-grace" and so I quoted you passages that were undeniably "post-grace" that demonstrate that your idea of forgiving everyone whether they repent or not just isn't in the mind of anyone anywhere in the bible - period. You didn't see forgiveness in those passages because it wasn't there! Paul didn't teach to forgive people who are sexually immoral, he said to excommunicate them!

Forgiving is not pretending nothing happened or that there's no consequences.
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You see, just as I stated at the first of this post. Your understanding of forgiveness is skewed. What you think is forgiveness is not forgiveness because forgiveness is precisely that there is no consequence. If you forgive someone you act toward them as though they had not done you harm. Otherwise, its not forgiveness because there's still an issue between you.

I do agree that its not pretending though. Forgiveness is quite a real thing. When we are forgiven, the consequences of our sin is placed on Christ and thus any further consequence for the SIN would be unjust. The crime is another matter. Crimes are sins to be sure and while the spiritual consequences of the crime (i.e. the sin) was dealt with by Christ, the crime of it remains to be dealt with for the sake of a civilized society. The world has not yet been redeemed and so we must still live in this fallen world with evil people in it. If Christ's death was used as a trump card for every criminal to use to escape punishment by the governing official, then the world would quickly descend into utter chaos as in the days of Noah. This is, in part, what Paul was alluding to when he remarked that the governing official does not bear the sword in vain (Romans 13:4).

Corinthians shouldn't be close to people doing certain stuff for some reasons but who said they shouldn't forgive them?
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We should forgive them if/when they repent, not before. If they do not repent the sexually immoral believer should be excommunicated as both Jesus and Paul explicitly taught.

Matthew 18:15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.


I Corinthians 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named[a] among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. ​

We lock a rapist away for years, but not because we're mad at them and want revenge; we want to make it impassible for them to hurt more people.
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Locking rapists away for years is unjust. It is the most expensive and least effective means of dealing with criminals. The bible tells us what we aught to do with rapists, we (i.e. this nation) just chooses to ignore God's word.

Amen here :)
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:up:

Resting in Him,
Clete
 
Jamie Gigliotti

Jamie Gigliotti

New member
Clete said:
Then you have other emotional issues that need dealt with that have nothing to do with forgiveness. Either that you don't understand what forgiveness is. I'd wager you don't actually forgive many of the people you think you forgive because you still expect those people to answer to God. And that's all I'm suggesting. There is no need to "hold a grudge" where the offender lives rent free in your mind 24/7 and where you eventually become embittered and angry. The biblical teaching is that vengeance belongs to God and we aught to look forward to that vengeance. If someone has wronged you, don't let their offense further harm you by becoming bitter. Instead, turn the situation over to God who is the righteous judge of all the Earth and will not permit the scales of justice to ever be unbalanced forever.



Rot in Hell OR become saved! Somehow the scales of justice will be brought to balance! The murder will pay his due if he does not allow Christ to pay it for him and it is not just of you to let him off the hook. It does not help you and it may help prevent him from becoming saved.


Well someone's going to be! If not you then Christ and that's justice! That's why it had to be God who died. Just another man could have died in your place, if he were innocent, but then the whole rest of the world would be lost and even an innocent man has no power to take up his own life again after having laid it down for your sake. The death of the Divine was all that could suffice to both pay the sin debt owed by the whole world and to defeat death in resurrection.

And you aught to want it for others for the reason Paul describes in I Corinthians...

I Corinthians 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named[a] among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. ​

On what planet does that sound similar to the doctrine of forgiveness you currently believe?


That is irrelevant, incorrect but irrelevant. The point is that saints in Heaven, in the presence of God Himself, want to see vengeance! They aren't all, "forgive and forget", "judge not", etc. like nearly every mindless Christian pastor in the country.


Because you seemed to have accepted my answer to your question but wanted to squirm on the logical implications of it.

You want to be nicer than God is! God doesn't tell us (in either the New or the Old Testament) to forgive people who don't show any evidence of being sorry for what they did and yet you (not really you but whomever it is that taught you this mumbo-jumbo) that we're supposed to just offer anyone and everyone blanket forgiveness whether they're repentant or not.


No it isn't! I mean, sure, certain issues are more complex than others but this is not one of the difficult ones. You can't find anything in the bible that teaches that we aught to offer forgiveness sans repentance. And the fact that you believe otherwise is precisely what brought your mind to detect an incongruity with the way God deals with offenses vs the way you believe that God wants us to deal with them. And there in fact would be a genuine incongruity if you were right about this blanket forgiveness idea, but you're not. The only place an incongruity actually exists is in your doctrine. The question is whether you are willing to alter it.


This comment is self-contradictory. Either that or you are suggesting that there is some sort of fundamental lack of ability on our part to understand God's "clear teaching". If that's the case, why bother asking the question? I mean, if you don't believe yourself capable of understanding the answer, why ask the question? In fact, if your mind isn't clear enough to understand the answer, how was it ever clear enough to have formulated to question in the first place?


Look, you have to make a better effort to stay on the same page here with me. I'm not saying anything complicated or confusing. You attempted to negate the words of Jesus Christ regarding forgiving people because it was "pre-grace" and so I quoted you passages that were undeniably "post-grace" that demonstrate that your idea of forgiving everyone whether they repent or not just isn't in the mind of anyone anywhere in the bible - period. You didn't see forgiveness in those passages because it wasn't there! Paul didn't teach to forgive people who are sexually immoral, he said to excommunicate them!


You see, just as I stated at the first of this post. Your understanding of forgiveness is skewed. What you think is forgiveness is not forgiveness because forgiveness is precisely that there is no consequence. If you forgive someone you act toward them as though they had not done you harm. Otherwise, its not forgiveness because there's still an issue between you.

I do agree that its not pretending though. Forgiveness is quite a real thing. When we are forgiven, the consequences of our sin is placed on Christ and thus any further consequence for the SIN would be unjust. The crime is another matter. Crimes are sins to be sure and while the spiritual consequences of the crime (i.e. the sin) was dealt with by Christ, the crime of it remains to be dealt with for the sake of a civilized society. The world has not yet been redeemed and so we must still live in this fallen world with evil people in it. If Christ's death was used as a trump card for every criminal to use to escape punishment by the governing official, then the world would quickly descend into utter chaos as in the days of Noah. This is, in part, what Paul was alluding to when he remarked that the governing official does not bear the sword in vain (Romans 13:4).


We should forgive them if/when they repent, not before. If they do not repent the sexually immoral believer should be excommunicated as both Jesus and Paul explicitly taught.

Matthew 18:15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.


I Corinthians 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named[a] among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. ​


Locking rapists away for years is unjust. It is the most expensive and least effective means of dealing with criminals. The bible tells us what we aught to do with rapists, we (i.e. this nation) just chooses to ignore God's word.

:up:

Resting in Him,
Clete
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This post is way too long
 
Lon

Lon

Well-known member
Predi said:
I could find lots of examples when one in a million is right.
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Lots?

Predi said:
I'll give you one. I was born in a country that is close to 100% Roman Catholic.

At the same time, polls show that 60% of citizens disagree which major Catholic doctrines (which kicks them out of Church automatically, they're just oblivious to it).

In my teenage years I didn't know anyone who wasn't Catholic. But I began questioning some doctrines and started asking people questions.

None of them had answers, many of them didn't even try to answer, and some of them got offended that I dare to ask such questions.

At the same time I became stigmatized as the heretic, possessed, weird. After some time I started questioning my sanity.
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Sorry, mate. Half of my family is Catholic on my mother's side, so I understand this to a degree. I'm not sure it is one in a million by example though.

Predi said:
Well, I survived, and it turned out with lots of things I was the only right among them all.

I hope right now you can understand why I hate statistics :)
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Makes some sense.



Predi said:
Careful... nicely said :) The way I see it most of societies today don't encourage too much thinking. Especially in religion and politics. If you're born Baptist and republican, you'll die this way, just because the thought of rebellion will scare the juice out of you - as it might perhaps mean losing much of your friends and family.

At the same time such "not-thinking" people may win the Nobel prize or invent something that will change the world.

I don't quite understand it, but it seems for most people, no matter how hard they try to be "careful" then won't change some of their thinking patterns.

I'm sure we all have patterns we brought from our environment that we keep without questioning, and it's normal, our brain would die of stress if we questioned every single thing. The important question is - are the patterns you have helping your life or ruining it?



Again, I hope you know now these numbers don't matter to me.

I can talk about arguments, not about how many people believe it.




I'm extremely careful with making doctrines just from Gospels, especially if there's not a word about them in Paul's letters, which I believe are the only part of the Bible 100% relevant to us.
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Mid Acts Dispensational?
 
heir

heir

TOL Subscriber
jamie said:
Then he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” (Acts 9:4)​
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He appeared last to Paul (1 Corinthians 15:8 KJV, 2 Corinthians 12:1-6 KJV). He's not speaking audibly to you or me. If you're hearing voices, they are seducing spirits (1 Timothy 4:1 KJV).
 
B

Ben Masada

New member
jamie said:
Then he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” (Acts 9:4)​
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Epilepsy Jamie, it was epilepsy. Paul suffered from epilepsy. You can read about it in the Encyclopedia Catholic under the subtitle "New Testament." That's why Paul fell from his horse. That's why epilepsy is also called the "fall disease." That's the main characteristic of this disease: To fall. Paul never saw Jesus and, even if Jesus had appeared to him, Jesus would not contradict himself by choosing Paul to bear his name before the Gentiles. (Acts 11:15) He had already forbade his apostles to take his word to the Gentiles. (Mat. 10:5,6)
 
B

Ben Masada

New member
Jamie Gigliotti said:
Forgiveness frees the offended. Reconciliation comes with repentance.
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Agree with you Gigliotti. That's the meaning of Isaiah 1:18,19. That's the only way to set things
right with the Lord so that our sins from scarlet red become as white as snow. No one else can do
that for you. (Jer. 31:30; Ezek. 18:20)
 
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