Christians worship Christ; JW's do not!

[Catholic Crusader]

I think it would be fair to admit that the CC doesn't teach to worship Mary, but the fact is that many if not most Catholics DO worship her.

That's NOT the fact. But I'll meet you part way on that one: Some uneducated third world backwards Catholics might do that, but that has nothing to do with actual Catholicism. I am sure that uneducated and ignorant people in any faith probably botch up the practice of that faith. I say, what does that have to do with anything.

Well said...

You be quiet. JudgeRightly is being reasonable here. Your snotty accusation at me of Mariolatry was anything but reasonable, just like you telling that Jewish guy he's going to hell was rude. That sort of crap ruins conversations.

 

[Apple7]

That's NOT the fact. But I'll meet you part way on that one: Some uneducated third world backwards Catholics might do that, but that has nothing to do with actual Catholicism. I am sure that uneducated and ignorant people in any faith probably botch up the practice of that faith. I say, what does that have to do with anything.

Every Catholic that I have ever come across prays to Mary.

You be quiet. JudgeRightly is being reasonable here. Your snotty accusation at me of Mariolatry was anything but reasonable, just like you telling that Jewish guy he's going to hell was rude. That sort of crap ruins conversations.

Jews, by definition, deny Jesus' deity.

Therefore, they have only eternal death.

Simple Biblical truth...

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Every Catholic that I have ever come across prays to Mary........

So do I. Thats not worship. Prayer is not worship. I have a nice thread on that to educate you.

 

[Apple7]

So do I. Thats not worship. Prayer is not worship. I have a nice thread on that to educate you.

Then you perform mariolatry, too!

No wonder you flew off the handle like you did...

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Then you perform mariolatry, too!

No wonder you flew off the handle like you did...

Good Lord you're an imbecile. You haven't got the slightest idea what paryer OR worship is.

Here you go:


Saint Worship
https://www.catholic.com/tract/saint-worship

The word "worship" has undergone a change in meaning in English. It comes from the Old English weorthscipe, which means the condition of being worthy of honor, respect, or dignity. To worship in the older, larger sense is to ascribe honor, worth, or excellence to someone, whether a sage, a magistrate, or God.

For many centuries, the term worship simply meant showing respect or honor, and an example of this usage survives in contemporary English. British subjects refer to their magistrates as "Your Worship," although Americans would say "Your Honor." This doesn’t mean that British subjects worship their magistrates as gods (in fact, they may even despise a particular magistrate they are addressing). It means they are giving them the honor appropriate to their office, not the honor appropriate to God.

Outside of this example, however, the English term "worship" has been narrowed in scope to indicate only that supreme form of honor, reverence, and respect that is due to God. This change in usage is quite recent. In fact, one can still find books that use "worship" in the older, broader sense. This can lead to a significant degree of confusion, when people who are familiar only with the use of words in their own day and their own circles encounter material written in other times and other places.

In Scripture, the term "worship" was similarly broad in meaning, but in the early Christian centuries, theologians began to differentiate between different types of honor in order to make more clear which is due to God and which is not.

As the terminology of Christian theology developed, the Greek term latria came to be used to refer to the honor that is due to God alone, and the term dulia came to refer to the honor that is due to human beings, especially those who lived and died in God’s friendship—in other words, the saints. Scripture indicates that honor is due to these individuals (Matt. 10:41b). A special term was coined to refer to the special honor given to the Virgin Mary, who bore Jesus—God in the flesh—in her womb. This term, hyperdulia (huper [more than]+ dulia = "beyond dulia"), indicates that the honor due to her as Christ’s own Mother is more than the dulia given to other saints. It is greater in degree, but still of the same kind. However, since Mary is a finite creature, the honor she is due is fundamentally different in kind from the latria owed to the infinite Creator.

All of these terms—latria, dulia, hyperdulia—used to be lumped under the one English word "worship." Sometimes when one reads old books discussing the subject of how particular persons are to be honored, they will qualify the word "worship" by referring to "the worship of latria" or "the worship of dulia." To contemporaries and to those not familiar with the history of these terms, however, this is too confusing.

Another attempt to make clear the difference between the honor due to God and that due to humans has been to use the words adore and adoration to describe the total, consuming reverence due to God and the terms venerate, veneration, and honor to refer to the respect due humans. Thus, Catholics sometimes say, "We adore God but we honor his saints."

Unfortunately, many non-Catholics have been so schooled in hostility toward the Church that they appear unable or unwilling to recognize these distinctions. They confidently (often arrogantly) assert that Catholics "worship" Mary and the saints, and, in so doing, commit idolatry. This is patently false, of course, but the education in anti-Catholic prejudice is so strong that one must patiently explain that Catholics do not worship anyone but God—at least given the contemporary use of the term. The Church is very strict about the fact that latria, adoration—what contemporary English speakers call "worship"—is to be given only to God.

Though one should know it from one’s own background, it often may be best to simply point out that Catholics do not worship anyone but God and omit discussing the history of the term. Many non-Catholics might be more perplexed than enlightened by hearing the history of the word. Familiar only with their group’s use of the term "worship," they may misperceive a history lesson as rationalization and end up even more adamant in their declarations that the term is applicable only to God. They may even go further. Wanting to attack the veneration of the saints, they may declare that only God should be honored.

Both of these declarations are in direct contradiction to the language and precepts of the Bible. The term "worship" was used in the same way in the Bible that it used to be used in English. It could cover both the adoration given to God alone and the honor that is to be shown to certain human beings. In Hebrew, the term for worship is shakhah. It is appropriately used for humans in a large number of passages.

For example, in Genesis 37:7–9 Joseph relates two dreams that God gave him concerning how his family would honor him in coming years. Translated literally the passage states: "‘ehold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and lo, my sheaf arose and stood upright; and behold, your sheaves gathered round it, and worshiped [shakhah] my sheaf.’ . . . Then he dreamed another dream, and told it to his brothers, and said, ‘Behold, I have dreamed another dream; and behold, the sun, the moon, and eleven stars were worshiping [shakhah] me.’"

In Genesis 49:2-27, Jacob pronounced a prophetic blessing on his sons, and concerning Judah he stated: "Judah, your brothers shall praise you; your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies; your father’s sons shall worship [shakhah] you (49:8)." And in Exodus 18:7, Moses honored his father-in-law, Jethro: "Moses went out to meet his father-in-law, and worshiped [shakhah] him and kissed him; and they asked each other of their welfare, and went into the tent."

Yet none of these passages were discussing the worship of adoration, the kind of worship given to God.

Honoring Saints

Consider how honor is given. We regularly give it to public officials. In the United States it is customary to address a judge as "Your Honor." In the marriage ceremony it used to be said that the wife would "love, honor, and obey" her husband. Letters to legislators are addressed to "The Honorable So-and-So." And just about anyone, living or dead, who bears an exalted rank is said to be worthy of honor, and this is particularly true of historical figures, as when children are (or at least used to be) instructed to honor the Founding Fathers of America.

These practices are entirely Biblical. We are explicitly commanded at numerous points in the Bible to honor certain people. One of the most important commands on this subject is the command to honor one’s parents: "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the Lord your God gives you" (Ex. 20:12). God considered this command so important that he repeated it multiple times in the Bible (for example, Lev. 19:3, Deut. 5:16, Matt. 15:4, Luke 18:20, and Eph. 6:2–3). It was also important to give honor to one’s elders in general: "You shall rise up before the hoary head, and honor the face of an old man, and you shall fear your God: I am the Lord" (Lev. 19:32). It was also important to specially honor religious leaders: "Make sacred garments for your brother Aaron [the high priest], to give him dignity and honor" (Ex. 28:2).

The New Testament stresses the importance of honoring others no less than the Old Testament. The apostle Paul commanded: "Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due" (Rom. 13:7). He also stated this as a principle regarding one’s employers: "Slaves, be obedient to those who are your earthly masters, with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as to Christ" (Eph. 6:5). "Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be defamed" (1 Tim. 6:1). Perhaps the broadest command to honor others is found in 1 Peter: "Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor" (1 Pet. 2:17).

The New Testament also stresses the importance of honoring religious figures. Paul spoke of the need to give them special honor in 1 Timothy: "Let the presbyters [priests] who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching" (1 Tim. 5:17). Christ himself promised special blessings to those who honor religious figures: "He who receives a prophet because he is a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward, and he who receives a righteous man [saint] because he is a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward" (Matt. 10:41).

So, if there can be nothing wrong with honoring the living, who still have an opportunity to ruin their lives through sin, there certainly can be no argument against giving honor to saints whose lives are done and who ended them in sanctity. If people should be honored in general, God’s special friends certainly should be honored.

Statue Worship?

People who do not know better sometimes say that Catholics worship statues. Not only is this untrue, it is even untrue that Catholics honor statues. After all, a statue is nothing but a carved block of marble or a chunk of plaster, and no one gives honor to marble yet unquarried or to plaster still in the mixing bowl.

The fact that someone kneels before a statue to pray does not mean that he is praying to the statue, just as the fact that someone kneels with a Bible in his hands to pray does not mean that he is worshiping the Bible. Statues or paintings or other artistic devices are used to recall to the mind the person or thing depicted. Just as it is easier to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it is easier to recall the lives of the saints by looking at representations of them.

The use of statues and icons for liturgical purposes (as opposed to idols) also had a place in the Old Testament. In Exodus 25:18–20, God commanded: "And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be."

In Numbers 21:8–9, he told Moses: "‘Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.’ So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live." This shows the actual ceremonial use of a statue (looking to it) in order to receive a blessing from God (healing from snakebite). In John 3:14, Jesus tells us that he himself is what the bronze serpent represented, so it was a symbolic representation of Jesus. There was no problem with this statue—God had commanded it to be made—so long as people did not worship it. When they did, the righteous king Hezekiah had it destroyed (2 Kgs. 18:4). This clearly shows the difference between the proper religious use of statues and idolatry.

When the time came to build the Temple in Jerusalem, God inspired David’s plans for it, which included "his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing from the hand of the Lord concerning it, all the work to be done according to the plan" (1 Chr. 28:18–19).

In obedience to this divinely inspired plan, Solomon built two gigantic, golden statues of cherubim: "In the most holy place he made two cherubim of wood and overlaid them with gold. The wings of the cherubim together extended twenty cubits: one wing of the one, of five cubits, touched the wall of the house, and its other wing, of five cubits, touched the wing of the other cherub; and of this cherub, one wing, of five cubits, touched the wall of the house, and the other wing, also of five cubits, was joined to the wing of the first cherub. The wings of these cherubim extended twenty cubits; the cherubim stood on their feet, facing the nave. And he made the veil of blue and purple and crimson fabrics and fine linen, and worked cherubim on it" (2 Chr. 3:10–14).

(See the Catholic Answers tract, Do Catholics Worship Statutes? for further information.)

Imitation is the Biblical Form of Honor

The most important form of honoring the saints, to which all the other forms are related, is the imitation of them in their relationship with God. Paul wrote extensively about the importance of spiritual imitation. He stated: "I urge you, then, be imitators of me. Therefore I sent to you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, to remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach them everywhere in every church" (1 Cor. 4:16–17). Later he told the same group: "Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ. I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you" (1 Cor. 11:1–2). The author of the book of Hebrews also stresses the importance of imitating true spiritual leaders: "Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God; consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith" (Heb. 13:7).

One of the most important passages on imitation is found in Hebrews. Chapter 11 of that book, the Bible’s well-known "hall of fame" chapter, presents numerous examples of the Old Testament saints for our imitation. It concludes with the famous exhortation: "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us" (12:1)—the race that the saints have run before us.

 

[Apple7]

Good Lord you're an imbecile. You haven't got the slightest idea what paryer OR worship is.

No need to name call, if you are confident.

When you recite the Lord's Prayer...are you worshipping Him?

Yes...or...no...?

 

[JudgeRightly]

So do I. Thats not worship. Prayer is not worship. I have a nice thread on that to educate you.

I recommend you listen to this:

http://kgov.com/bob-enyart-debates-a-roman-catholic

http://kgov.com/bel/20160330

Why pray to Mary? She's not capable of hearing everyone who prays to her, let alone in every language... She's not God, therefore, you shouldn't pray to her.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

.......Why pray to Mary? She's not capable of hearing everyone who prays to her.......

God makes it possible.

As I said in another thread, I see we need a little education here on asking our fellow Christians to pray for us, and I see we also need a little education here on the fact that the Body of Christ is the Body of Christ whether the members be in heaven or on earth:

Friends in High Places
By Tim Staples - source link

(used with permission)

Some Christians usually voice four main objections about praying to saints:

• If we are supposed to pray to saints, why does Jesus command us to pray to the Father in Matthew 6:9? The Bible says we are to pray to God. Catholics make "gods" out of the saints by praying to them instead of God.
• Deuteronomy 18:10-11 and similar verses of Scripture condemn necromancy. If necromancy means "communicating with the dead," it would seem to condemn praying to saints.
• First Timothy 2:5 clearly states "there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ." And Hebrews 7:24-25 says, "But [Christ] holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues for ever. Consequently, he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them." If Christ is our unique mediator/intercessor, then why would any Christian seek the intercession of saints? Why would I go to a saint, even if I could, when I can go straight to Christ?
• It is impossible for us to pray to saints anyway because they would have to be God in order to be able to hear and answer multiple prayers at the same time!

Worship or Entreaty?

When Catholics say they pray to saints, they are talking about something essentially different from praying to God. We use the same word for both, but each kind of prayer is very different in nature. Prayer to God includes the worship that is owed him alone. Prayer to saints includes the honor that is their due, but never worship. In that sense, Catholics can agree with Protestants that prayer to God is unique. The problem here is, at least in part, semantics.

Any good dictionary will tell you prayer can simply mean a petition or entreaty from one person to another. It does not necessarily mean there is worship involved. Earlier forms of English presented less difficulty with the word. One could say to another, "Pray tell…" or, "I pray thee, my Lord…" Ironically, we see several examples of this usage in the King James Bible—a Bible many Fundamentalists hold in especially high regard. For example, when Bathsheba makes a request of King Solomon in 1 Kings 2:20, she says: "I pray thee, say me not nay." There is no question here of whether Bathsheba was worshipping her son! She was not. Nor are Catholics when we pray to saints.


What Is Necromancy?

Without any doubt Scripture condemns "necromancy." Consider Deuteronomy 18:10-12:

There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord (emphasis added).​

The problem arises with the attempt to apply the term necromancy indiscriminately to mean all manner of communication with those who have died. This is an improper usage of the term. Dictionaries define necromancy as "conjuring up spirits" or "communication with the spirits of the dead in order to foretell the future, black magic or sorcery." When Catholics pray to saints, we do not "conjure up" spirits or tell fortunes. In fact, the Catholic Church is in complete agreement with the Bible when it condemns consulting "mediums" and "wizards."

Protestants who claim that God prohibits communicating with the dead in any sense run into a serious problem. Jesus would clearly be guilty in Luke 9:29-31:

And as was praying, the appearance of his countenance was altered, and his raiment became dazzling white. And behold, two men talked with him, Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem.​

According to Deuteronomy 34:5, Moses was a dead guy! And yet Jesus was communicating with him and Elijah about the most important event in human history—the Redemption. There is no contradiction here as long as one makes the distinction that is very clear in Scripture: there is an essential difference between going to "mediums" or "wizards" to conjure up the spirits of the dead and communicating—as Jesus did—with those we either hope (if they have not been canonized) or believe (if they have been canonized) died in friendship with God.

I should note here that many Evangelicals will say it is not wrong to communicate with the dead in any context. It would only be wrong if that contact originates from the one who is living on earth. In other words, the communication would have to be initiated by either God or by the angel or saint at God’s direction.

This argument fails for the simple reason that Jesus was the one who initiated the communication with Moses and Elijah in Luke 9. Some may say, "Well, he is God, so he can do that." Yes, he is. But he is also fully man and we are called to imitate him.

The New Testament presents other examples of believers on earth who initiate communication with saints and angels in heaven. First, we have Hebrews 11-12. Some refer to chapter 11 as "the hall of faith" wherein the lives of the Old Testament saints are recounted. As chapter 12 begins, the inspired author encourages a persecuted church to consider that they are "surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses" and that they must "run the race" of faith set before them. Then, beginning in verse 18, he encourages them by recalling the lofty nature of their covenant—the New Covenant—which is far superior to the Old:

For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire … darkness … gloom … and the sound of a trumpet, and a voice whose words made the hearers entreat that no further messages be spoken to them…
But you have come to… the city of the living God… and to innumerable angels… and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven… and to… God… and to the spirits of just men made perfect… and to Jesus…​

Notice, in the Old Covenant the People of God approached God alone and with trepidation. But in the New Covenant, when we approach God either in private prayer or liturgically, we have a radical change for the better. "But you have come to … and to … and to … and to." In the same way we "come to" God and Jesus we also "come to" the angels, and to "the spirits of just men made perfect." Those are the saints in heaven. In the fellowship of the saints, we have the aid and encouragement of the whole family of God. And we approach them all by way of prayer!

The book of Revelation gives us an even better description of this communication between heaven and earth. Revelation 5:8-14 reads:

The twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints … the elders fell down and worshipped.​

These "elders" are offering the prayers from believers living on earth symbolized by incense filtering upward from the earth to heaven. Obviously, these prayers are initiated by the living on earth. Is this necromancy? Absolutely not! This is New Covenant Christianity.


What Part of One Doesn’t Make Sense?

The Catholic Church teaches Jesus Christ is our one mediator/intercessor. He is the only mediator, strictly speaking, because he is the only person in the universe who can mediate between the two parties needing to be reconciled. He is God, thus he has the infinite power required to appease God. He is man, thus he can make fitting atonement for the sin of man. Though this mediation is incommunicable in a strict sense, it does not preclude secondary mediators in Christ by way of participation.

The context of 1 Timothy 2 demonstrates this to be true. Just before St. Paul declared Christ to be our one, unique mediator/intercessor, he commanded all Christians to be intercessors (or mediators) in verses 1-2.

Further, the very definition of a priest is "a mediator between God and men." All Christians are priests! All are not ministerial priests, but all Christians are priests nonetheless. First Peter 2:5,9 declares:

And like living stones be yourselves built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people, that you may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.​

It follows then, that all Christians are mediators in a participatory sense in what Christ alone is by nature and absolutely.

Why would I go to the saints when I can go straight to God? The answer is not an either/or proposition. It’s both/and! One could say just as well: Why would I ask my brother in Christ to intercede for me when I can go to Christ, the perfect intercessor? The Catholic answer is: because God commands us to pray for one another. Jesus said "where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matt. 18:20). God, in his providential plan, has chosen to use unworthy sinners like you and me to minister his grace and healing to one another.


Are Catholics God-Makers?

This final question claims Catholics make "gods" out of the saints by praying to them. This sounds like a repeat of the first question, but it’s not. The first question considered giving what is perceived as divine honor to the saints. This objection says Catholics attribute infinite—and therefore divine—power to the saints: "It would be impossible for any saint to hear the prayers of thousands or even millions of people at the same time and respond. Even more, 2 Chronicles 6:30 tells us ‘[God] alone knowest the hearts of the children of men.’ So how could saints hear the silent prayers of millions at the same time?"

The objector claims it would require infinite power to be able to accomplish what Catholics claim the saints can accomplish. Only God is infinite. Therefore, it is irrational—and sinful—to pray to saints.

The simplest Catholic response would be to challenge our Protestant friends to believe what God says in Scripture. Remember Revelation 5:8?

And when [Christ, the lamb] had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints...​

These twenty-four elders are human beings in heaven and they are depicted as "each one [having] vials of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." Each one of them was responding to multiple prayers from multiple people at the same time. These saints in heaven somehow have the power to do what to some may seem impossible. We would do well to recall the words of the Archangel Gabriel at this juncture: "With God all things are possible" (cf. Luke 1:37). If we have faith, we will have no problem believing God’s word over our own feeble and fallible intellects.


Let’s Get Metaphysical

So far, so good, but we still need to square all of these texts, as well as give some reasons for the faith we see depicted Revelation 5. Three basic areas of misunderstanding need to be cleared up.

First, there’s the problem with saints hearing multiple prayers at the same time. Quite simply, time is not an issue to the saints because they are outside of time. They don’t need any time to respond. Second, we need to ask the question: Would it require infinite power to hear the prayers of, let’s say, one billion people? The answer is yes and no. On one level we can say one billion is a finite number, so by nature the task would not require infinite power. However, it is necessary for one to be omniscient if we are talking about the one whose power is responsible for the phenomenon. In other words, omniscience would be required for God to accomplish this because he is the first cause. However, omniscience and omnipotence are not required of those to whom God grants limited power with his divine assistance to be able to accomplish that which is beyond their natural abilities.

St. Thomas Aquinas answers this question succinctly when he says the ability to perform actions that transcend nature comes from a "created light of glory received into [the] created intellect" (cf. Summa Theologiae I:12:7). It would require infinite power to "create the light" or the grace given to empower man to act beyond nature. Only God can do that. But it does not require infinite power to passively receive that light. As long as what is received is not infinite by nature or does not require infinite power to comprehend, it would not be beyond man’s ability to receive. Therefore, this "created light," given by God to empower men to be able hear a finite number of prayers, is reasonable as well as biblical.


A Good Ol’ Heart to Heart

But what about the fact that "only God knowest the hearts of the children of men" (2 Chr. 6:30)? In order to answer prayers "from the hearts of men," wouldn’t Mary and the saints have to be able to "know the hearts of the children of men?" It is true that only God knows the hearts of men. But it is also true that God can reveal this knowledge to his servants.

Scripture gives us multiple examples of this phenomenon. Daniel 2 is perhaps the clearest. As the story goes, King Nebuchadnezzar had a troubling dream. He called for "the sorcerers" and "wise men" of his kingdom so they might interpret the dream for him. But there was one catch. He wanted them to tell him the dream first, and then they could give him the interpretation. None of them could. Nebuchadnezzar was furious. He immediately ordered the deaths of all "the magicians, enchanters, sorcerers," and "wise men" of the kingdom. That would include Daniel and his companions—Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego—as well.

Daniel told his three companions to pray to God for deliverance, resulting in God revealing to Daniel both the King’s dream and its interpretation. Daniel certainly knew the heart of the King. Daniel could "know the heart of a man" through the power of God; the abilities of the saints and angels in heaven far surpasses Daniel’s. For them to hear the silent prayers of the faithful on earth is a piece of cake.[/QUOTE]

 

[Catholic Crusader]

 

[Catholic Crusader]

 

[JudgeRightly]

God makes it possible.

As I said in another thread, I see we need a little education here on asking our fellow Christians to pray for us, and I see we also need a little education here on the fact that the Body of Christ is the Body of Christ whether the members be in heaven or on earth. I shall oblige momentarily:

Friends in High Places
By Tim Staples - source link

(used with permission)

Some Christians usually voice four main objections about praying to saints:

• If we are supposed to pray to saints, why does Jesus command us to pray to the Father in Matthew 6:9? The Bible says we are to pray to God. Catholics make "gods" out of the saints by praying to them instead of God.
• Deuteronomy 18:10-11 and similar verses of Scripture condemn necromancy. If necromancy means "communicating with the dead," it would seem to condemn praying to saints.
• First Timothy 2:5 clearly states "there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ." And Hebrews 7:24-25 says, "But [Christ] holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues for ever. Consequently, he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them." If Christ is our unique mediator/intercessor, then why would any Christian seek the intercession of saints? Why would I go to a saint, even if I could, when I can go straight to Christ?
• It is impossible for us to pray to saints anyway because they would have to be God in order to be able to hear and answer multiple prayers at the same time!

Worship or Entreaty?

When Catholics say they pray to saints, they are talking about something essentially different from praying to God. We use the same word for both, but each kind of prayer is very different in nature. Prayer to God includes the worship that is owed him alone. Prayer to saints includes the honor that is their due, but never worship. In that sense, Catholics can agree with Protestants that prayer to God is unique. The problem here is, at least in part, semantics.

Any good dictionary will tell you prayer can simply mean a petition or entreaty from one person to another. It does not necessarily mean there is worship involved. Earlier forms of English presented less difficulty with the word. One could say to another, "Pray tell…" or, "I pray thee, my Lord…" Ironically, we see several examples of this usage in the King James Bible—a Bible many Fundamentalists hold in especially high regard. For example, when Bathsheba makes a request of King Solomon in 1 Kings 2:20, she says: "I pray thee, say me not nay." There is no question here of whether Bathsheba was worshipping her son! She was not. Nor are Catholics when we pray to saints.


What Is Necromancy?

Without any doubt Scripture condemns "necromancy." Consider Deuteronomy 18:10-12:

There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord (emphasis added).​

The problem arises with the attempt to apply the term necromancy indiscriminately to mean all manner of communication with those who have died. This is an improper usage of the term. Dictionaries define necromancy as "conjuring up spirits" or "communication with the spirits of the dead in order to foretell the future, black magic or sorcery." When Catholics pray to saints, we do not "conjure up" spirits or tell fortunes. In fact, the Catholic Church is in complete agreement with the Bible when it condemns consulting "mediums" and "wizards."

Protestants who claim that God prohibits communicating with the dead in any sense run into a serious problem. Jesus would clearly be guilty in Luke 9:29-31:

And as was praying, the appearance of his countenance was altered, and his raiment became dazzling white. And behold, two men talked with him, Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem.​

According to Deuteronomy 34:5, Moses was a dead guy! And yet Jesus was communicating with him and Elijah about the most important event in human history—the Redemption. There is no contradiction here as long as one makes the distinction that is very clear in Scripture: there is an essential difference between going to "mediums" or "wizards" to conjure up the spirits of the dead and communicating—as Jesus did—with those we either hope (if they have not been canonized) or believe (if they have been canonized) died in friendship with God.

I should note here that many Evangelicals will say it is not wrong to communicate with the dead in any context. It would only be wrong if that contact originates from the one who is living on earth. In other words, the communication would have to be initiated by either God or by the angel or saint at God’s direction.

This argument fails for the simple reason that Jesus was the one who initiated the communication with Moses and Elijah in Luke 9. Some may say, "Well, he is God, so he can do that." Yes, he is. But he is also fully man and we are called to imitate him.

The New Testament presents other examples of believers on earth who initiate communication with saints and angels in heaven. First, we have Hebrews 11-12. Some refer to chapter 11 as "the hall of faith" wherein the lives of the Old Testament saints are recounted. As chapter 12 begins, the inspired author encourages a persecuted church to consider that they are "surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses" and that they must "run the race" of faith set before them. Then, beginning in verse 18, he encourages them by recalling the lofty nature of their covenant—the New Covenant—which is far superior to the Old:

For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire … darkness … gloom … and the sound of a trumpet, and a voice whose words made the hearers entreat that no further messages be spoken to them…
But you have come to… the city of the living God… and to innumerable angels… and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven… and to… God… and to the spirits of just men made perfect… and to Jesus…​

Notice, in the Old Covenant the People of God approached God alone and with trepidation. But in the New Covenant, when we approach God either in private prayer or liturgically, we have a radical change for the better. "But you have come to … and to … and to … and to." In the same way we "come to" God and Jesus we also "come to" the angels, and to "the spirits of just men made perfect." Those are the saints in heaven. In the fellowship of the saints, we have the aid and encouragement of the whole family of God. And we approach them all by way of prayer!

The book of Revelation gives us an even better description of this communication between heaven and earth. Revelation 5:8-14 reads:

The twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints … the elders fell down and worshipped.​

These "elders" are offering the prayers from believers living on earth symbolized by incense filtering upward from the earth to heaven. Obviously, these prayers are initiated by the living on earth. Is this necromancy? Absolutely not! This is New Covenant Christianity.


What Part of One Doesn’t Make Sense?

The Catholic Church teaches Jesus Christ is our one mediator/intercessor. He is the only mediator, strictly speaking, because he is the only person in the universe who can mediate between the two parties needing to be reconciled. He is God, thus he has the infinite power required to appease God. He is man, thus he can make fitting atonement for the sin of man. Though this mediation is incommunicable in a strict sense, it does not preclude secondary mediators in Christ by way of participation.

The context of 1 Timothy 2 demonstrates this to be true. Just before St. Paul declared Christ to be our one, unique mediator/intercessor, he commanded all Christians to be intercessors (or mediators) in verses 1-2.

Further, the very definition of a priest is "a mediator between God and men." All Christians are priests! All are not ministerial priests, but all Christians are priests nonetheless. First Peter 2:5,9 declares:

And like living stones be yourselves built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people, that you may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.​

It follows then, that all Christians are mediators in a participatory sense in what Christ alone is by nature and absolutely.

Why would I go to the saints when I can go straight to God? The answer is not an either/or proposition. It’s both/and! One could say just as well: Why would I ask my brother in Christ to intercede for me when I can go to Christ, the perfect intercessor? The Catholic answer is: because God commands us to pray for one another. Jesus said "where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matt. 18:20). God, in his providential plan, has chosen to use unworthy sinners like you and me to minister his grace and healing to one another.


Are Catholics God-Makers?

This final question claims Catholics make "gods" out of the saints by praying to them. This sounds like a repeat of the first question, but it’s not. The first question considered giving what is perceived as divine honor to the saints. This objection says Catholics attribute infinite—and therefore divine—power to the saints: "It would be impossible for any saint to hear the prayers of thousands or even millions of people at the same time and respond. Even more, 2 Chronicles 6:30 tells us ‘[God] alone knowest the hearts of the children of men.’ So how could saints hear the silent prayers of millions at the same time?"

The objector claims it would require infinite power to be able to accomplish what Catholics claim the saints can accomplish. Only God is infinite. Therefore, it is irrational—and sinful—to pray to saints.

The simplest Catholic response would be to challenge our Protestant friends to believe what God says in Scripture. Remember Revelation 5:8?

And when [Christ, the lamb] had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints...​

These twenty-four elders are human beings in heaven and they are depicted as "each one [having] vials of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." Each one of them was responding to multiple prayers from multiple people at the same time. These saints in heaven somehow have the power to do what to some may seem impossible. We would do well to recall the words of the Archangel Gabriel at this juncture: "With God all things are possible" (cf. Luke 1:37). If we have faith, we will have no problem believing God’s word over our own feeble and fallible intellects.


Let’s Get Metaphysical

So far, so good, but we still need to square all of these texts, as well as give some reasons for the faith we see depicted Revelation 5. Three basic areas of misunderstanding need to be cleared up.

First, there’s the problem with saints hearing multiple prayers at the same time. Quite simply, time is not an issue to the saints because they are outside of time. They don’t need any time to respond. Second, we need to ask the question: Would it require infinite power to hear the prayers of, let’s say, one billion people? The answer is yes and no. On one level we can say one billion is a finite number, so by nature the task would not require infinite power. However, it is necessary for one to be omniscient if we are talking about the one whose power is responsible for the phenomenon. In other words, omniscience would be required for God to accomplish this because he is the first cause. However, omniscience and omnipotence are not required of those to whom God grants limited power with his divine assistance to be able to accomplish that which is beyond their natural abilities.

St. Thomas Aquinas answers this question succinctly when he says the ability to perform actions that transcend nature comes from a "created light of glory received into [the] created intellect" (cf. Summa Theologiae I:12:7). It would require infinite power to "create the light" or the grace given to empower man to act beyond nature. Only God can do that. But it does not require infinite power to passively receive that light. As long as what is received is not infinite by nature or does not require infinite power to comprehend, it would not be beyond man’s ability to receive. Therefore, this "created light," given by God to empower men to be able hear a finite number of prayers, is reasonable as well as biblical.


A Good Ol’ Heart to Heart

But what about the fact that "only God knowest the hearts of the children of men" (2 Chr. 6:30)? In order to answer prayers "from the hearts of men," wouldn’t Mary and the saints have to be able to "know the hearts of the children of men?" It is true that only God knows the hearts of men. But it is also true that God can reveal this knowledge to his servants.

Scripture gives us multiple examples of this phenomenon. Daniel 2 is perhaps the clearest. As the story goes, King Nebuchadnezzar had a troubling dream. He called for "the sorcerers" and "wise men" of his kingdom so they might interpret the dream for him. But there was one catch. He wanted them to tell him the dream first, and then they could give him the interpretation. None of them could. Nebuchadnezzar was furious. He immediately ordered the deaths of all "the magicians, enchanters, sorcerers," and "wise men" of the kingdom. That would include Daniel and his companions—Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego—as well.

Daniel told his three companions to pray to God for deliverance, resulting in God revealing to Daniel both the King’s dream and its interpretation. Daniel certainly knew the heart of the King. Daniel could "know the heart of a man" through the power of God; the abilities of the saints and angels in heaven far surpasses Daniel’s. For them to hear the silent prayers of the faithful on earth is a piece of cake.

http://kgov.com/bob-enyart-debates-a-roman-catholic

Again, I recommend listening to this show.

If you would like to skip to where they talk about Mary, start at 27 minutes in.

 

[Apple7]

CC...

Just a word of advice....no one is going to read your webpaste.

Be an adult and make your OWN replies...

 

[JudgeRightly]

God makes it possible.

As I said in another thread, I see we need a little education here on asking our fellow Christians to pray for us, and I see we also need a little education here on the fact that the Body of Christ is the Body of Christ whether the members be in heaven or on earth:

Friends in High Places
By Tim Staples - source link

(used with permission)

Some Christians usually voice four main objections about praying to saints:

• If we are supposed to pray to saints, why does Jesus command us to pray to the Father in Matthew 6:9? The Bible says we are to pray to God. Catholics make "gods" out of the saints by praying to them instead of God.
• Deuteronomy 18:10-11 and similar verses of Scripture condemn necromancy. If necromancy means "communicating with the dead," it would seem to condemn praying to saints.
• First Timothy 2:5 clearly states "there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ." And Hebrews 7:24-25 says, "But [Christ] holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues for ever. Consequently, he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them." If Christ is our unique mediator/intercessor, then why would any Christian seek the intercession of saints? Why would I go to a saint, even if I could, when I can go straight to Christ?
• It is impossible for us to pray to saints anyway because they would have to be God in order to be able to hear and answer multiple prayers at the same time!

Worship or Entreaty?

When Catholics say they pray to saints, they are talking about something essentially different from praying to God. We use the same word for both, but each kind of prayer is very different in nature. Prayer to God includes the worship that is owed him alone. Prayer to saints includes the honor that is their due, but never worship. In that sense, Catholics can agree with Protestants that prayer to God is unique. The problem here is, at least in part, semantics.

Any good dictionary will tell you prayer can simply mean a petition or entreaty from one person to another. It does not necessarily mean there is worship involved. Earlier forms of English presented less difficulty with the word. One could say to another, "Pray tell…" or, "I pray thee, my Lord…" Ironically, we see several examples of this usage in the King James Bible—a Bible many Fundamentalists hold in especially high regard. For example, when Bathsheba makes a request of King Solomon in 1 Kings 2:20, she says: "I pray thee, say me not nay." There is no question here of whether Bathsheba was worshipping her son! She was not. Nor are Catholics when we pray to saints.


What Is Necromancy?

Without any doubt Scripture condemns "necromancy." Consider Deuteronomy 18:10-12:

There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord (emphasis added).​

The problem arises with the attempt to apply the term necromancy indiscriminately to mean all manner of communication with those who have died. This is an improper usage of the term. Dictionaries define necromancy as "conjuring up spirits" or "communication with the spirits of the dead in order to foretell the future, black magic or sorcery." When Catholics pray to saints, we do not "conjure up" spirits or tell fortunes. In fact, the Catholic Church is in complete agreement with the Bible when it condemns consulting "mediums" and "wizards."

Protestants who claim that God prohibits communicating with the dead in any sense run into a serious problem. Jesus would clearly be guilty in Luke 9:29-31:

And as was praying, the appearance of his countenance was altered, and his raiment became dazzling white. And behold, two men talked with him, Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem.​

According to Deuteronomy 34:5, Moses was a dead guy! And yet Jesus was communicating with him and Elijah about the most important event in human history—the Redemption. There is no contradiction here as long as one makes the distinction that is very clear in Scripture: there is an essential difference between going to "mediums" or "wizards" to conjure up the spirits of the dead and communicating—as Jesus did—with those we either hope (if they have not been canonized) or believe (if they have been canonized) died in friendship with God.

I should note here that many Evangelicals will say it is not wrong to communicate with the dead in any context. It would only be wrong if that contact originates from the one who is living on earth. In other words, the communication would have to be initiated by either God or by the angel or saint at God’s direction.

This argument fails for the simple reason that Jesus was the one who initiated the communication with Moses and Elijah in Luke 9. Some may say, "Well, he is God, so he can do that." Yes, he is. But he is also fully man and we are called to imitate him.

The New Testament presents other examples of believers on earth who initiate communication with saints and angels in heaven. First, we have Hebrews 11-12. Some refer to chapter 11 as "the hall of faith" wherein the lives of the Old Testament saints are recounted. As chapter 12 begins, the inspired author encourages a persecuted church to consider that they are "surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses" and that they must "run the race" of faith set before them. Then, beginning in verse 18, he encourages them by recalling the lofty nature of their covenant—the New Covenant—which is far superior to the Old:

For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire … darkness … gloom … and the sound of a trumpet, and a voice whose words made the hearers entreat that no further messages be spoken to them…
But you have come to… the city of the living God… and to innumerable angels… and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven… and to… God… and to the spirits of just men made perfect… and to Jesus…​

Notice, in the Old Covenant the People of God approached God alone and with trepidation. But in the New Covenant, when we approach God either in private prayer or liturgically, we have a radical change for the better. "But you have come to … and to … and to … and to." In the same way we "come to" God and Jesus we also "come to" the angels, and to "the spirits of just men made perfect." Those are the saints in heaven. In the fellowship of the saints, we have the aid and encouragement of the whole family of God. And we approach them all by way of prayer!

The book of Revelation gives us an even better description of this communication between heaven and earth. Revelation 5:8-14 reads:

The twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints … the elders fell down and worshipped.​

These "elders" are offering the prayers from believers living on earth symbolized by incense filtering upward from the earth to heaven. Obviously, these prayers are initiated by the living on earth. Is this necromancy? Absolutely not! This is New Covenant Christianity.


What Part of One Doesn’t Make Sense?

The Catholic Church teaches Jesus Christ is our one mediator/intercessor. He is the only mediator, strictly speaking, because he is the only person in the universe who can mediate between the two parties needing to be reconciled. He is God, thus he has the infinite power required to appease God. He is man, thus he can make fitting atonement for the sin of man. Though this mediation is incommunicable in a strict sense, it does not preclude secondary mediators in Christ by way of participation.

The context of 1 Timothy 2 demonstrates this to be true. Just before St. Paul declared Christ to be our one, unique mediator/intercessor, he commanded all Christians to be intercessors (or mediators) in verses 1-2.

Further, the very definition of a priest is "a mediator between God and men." All Christians are priests! All are not ministerial priests, but all Christians are priests nonetheless. First Peter 2:5,9 declares:

And like living stones be yourselves built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people, that you may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.​

It follows then, that all Christians are mediators in a participatory sense in what Christ alone is by nature and absolutely.

Why would I go to the saints when I can go straight to God? The answer is not an either/or proposition. It’s both/and! One could say just as well: Why would I ask my brother in Christ to intercede for me when I can go to Christ, the perfect intercessor? The Catholic answer is: because God commands us to pray for one another. Jesus said "where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matt. 18:20). God, in his providential plan, has chosen to use unworthy sinners like you and me to minister his grace and healing to one another.


Are Catholics God-Makers?

This final question claims Catholics make "gods" out of the saints by praying to them. This sounds like a repeat of the first question, but it’s not. The first question considered giving what is perceived as divine honor to the saints. This objection says Catholics attribute infinite—and therefore divine—power to the saints: "It would be impossible for any saint to hear the prayers of thousands or even millions of people at the same time and respond. Even more, 2 Chronicles 6:30 tells us ‘[God] alone knowest the hearts of the children of men.’ So how could saints hear the silent prayers of millions at the same time?"

The objector claims it would require infinite power to be able to accomplish what Catholics claim the saints can accomplish. Only God is infinite. Therefore, it is irrational—and sinful—to pray to saints.

The simplest Catholic response would be to challenge our Protestant friends to believe what God says in Scripture. Remember Revelation 5:8?

And when [Christ, the lamb] had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints...​

These twenty-four elders are human beings in heaven and they are depicted as "each one [having] vials of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." Each one of them was responding to multiple prayers from multiple people at the same time. These saints in heaven somehow have the power to do what to some may seem impossible. We would do well to recall the words of the Archangel Gabriel at this juncture: "With God all things are possible" (cf. Luke 1:37). If we have faith, we will have no problem believing God’s word over our own feeble and fallible intellects.


Let’s Get Metaphysical

So far, so good, but we still need to square all of these texts, as well as give some reasons for the faith we see depicted Revelation 5. Three basic areas of misunderstanding need to be cleared up.

First, there’s the problem with saints hearing multiple prayers at the same time. Quite simply, time is not an issue to the saints because they are outside of time. They don’t need any time to respond. Second, we need to ask the question: Would it require infinite power to hear the prayers of, let’s say, one billion people? The answer is yes and no. On one level we can say one billion is a finite number, so by nature the task would not require infinite power. However, it is necessary for one to be omniscient if we are talking about the one whose power is responsible for the phenomenon. In other words, omniscience would be required for God to accomplish this because he is the first cause. However, omniscience and omnipotence are not required of those to whom God grants limited power with his divine assistance to be able to accomplish that which is beyond their natural abilities.

St. Thomas Aquinas answers this question succinctly when he says the ability to perform actions that transcend nature comes from a "created light of glory received into [the] created intellect" (cf. Summa Theologiae I:12:7). It would require infinite power to "create the light" or the grace given to empower man to act beyond nature. Only God can do that. But it does not require infinite power to passively receive that light. As long as what is received is not infinite by nature or does not require infinite power to comprehend, it would not be beyond man’s ability to receive. Therefore, this "created light," given by God to empower men to be able hear a finite number of prayers, is reasonable as well as biblical.


A Good Ol’ Heart to Heart

But what about the fact that "only God knowest the hearts of the children of men" (2 Chr. 6:30)? In order to answer prayers "from the hearts of men," wouldn’t Mary and the saints have to be able to "know the hearts of the children of men?" It is true that only God knows the hearts of men. But it is also true that God can reveal this knowledge to his servants.

Scripture gives us multiple examples of this phenomenon. Daniel 2 is perhaps the clearest. As the story goes, King Nebuchadnezzar had a troubling dream. He called for "the sorcerers" and "wise men" of his kingdom so they might interpret the dream for him. But there was one catch. He wanted them to tell him the dream first, and then they could give him the interpretation. None of them could. Nebuchadnezzar was furious. He immediately ordered the deaths of all "the magicians, enchanters, sorcerers," and "wise men" of the kingdom. That would include Daniel and his companions—Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego—as well.

Daniel told his three companions to pray to God for deliverance, resulting in God revealing to Daniel both the King’s dream and its interpretation. Daniel certainly knew the heart of the King. Daniel could "know the heart of a man" through the power of God; the abilities of the saints and angels in heaven far surpasses Daniel’s. For them to hear the silent prayers of the faithful on earth is a piece of cake.

So God made Mary omniscient and omnipresent?

 

[Apple7]

CC...

Please stop spamming my thread and answer this direct question, since you stated that 'prayer' is NOT the same as 'worship'...


When you recite the Lord's Prayer...are you worshipping Him?


Yes...or...no...?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

CC...

Please stop spamming my thread........

As soon as you stop spewing out ignorant lies about Mariolatry. Until then you don't tell me what to do.

One again, the 500 year old views of a tiny minority of Christians are distorted into being the majority view, and the 2,000 year old majority views are being characterized as non-Christian.

Praying to the Saints, The Mass; the Sacraments; the Priesthood; Infant Baptism, Apostolic Succession; various Marian doctrines such as Mary as Mother of God (Theotokos); I could go on and on..... these beliefs are all believed and accepted by Traditional Anglicans, Coptics, Eastern Orthodox, and others, and Catholics too.... .....in other words, these are all believed and accepted by practically all of Christianity. They have also been accepted for the 2,000 year history of Christianity. These beliefs are only rejected by the fringe tiny slice of protestantism & evangelicalism which is relatively new on the historic stage..

But to listen to so many of the uninformed people in this forum, you would think that night is day and day is night, that up is down and down is up, and that their neo-western, modern, extreme minority form of Christianity is actually long accepted Christianity. It is not.

You all have the right to your own opinion but you do not have the right to concoct your own revisionist history.

I intend to remind posters of THIS post every time accepted Christian beliefs are tossed at the feet of Catholics and labelled as some sort of invention. You all would do well to study the early Christian fathers from the early centuries, as well as the early ecummenical councils, to see what has always been believed by all of Christiandom. Like I said, you have the right to believe what you want, and if you want to go off into left field and believe some whacky new belief like there is no hell or there is no Trinity or some other neo-invention, then go right ahead and do that. But don't sit here and pretend it is authentic Christianity, because it is not. If you invent it then man-up and own it.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

But ON the subject of this thread... ....you are quite the judgemental jackass, you know that? You told that Jewish guy he is going to hell, you tell everyone who is and is not going to hell, you accuse me of idolatry, and this thread is you passing judgement on an entire group of people. Who the hell made YOU God!!

You know what? If anyone here is going to hell its probably YOU. I don't think God likes you stealing his chair bub. You're just a little to judgemental and too holier-than-thou. God in his wisdom probably plans on taking you down a few pegs and teaching you a little humility before the game is up. Perhaps you should consider shutting you piehole for a while.

So, you got anything else to say? I got more for ya'.

 

[keypurr]

I have already proven you wrong. Sorry.

Nope, you haven't CC.

 

[Apple7]

But ON the subject of this thread... ....you are quite the judgemental jackass, you know that? You told that Jewish guy he is going to hell, you tell everyone who is and is not going to hell, you accuse me of idolatry, and this thread is you passing judgement on an entire group of people. Who the hell made YOU God!!

You know what? If anyone here is going to hell its probably YOU. I don't think God likes you stealing his chair bub. You're just a little to judgemental and too holier-than-thou. God in his wisdom probably plans on taking you down a few pegs and teaching you a little humility before the game is up. Perhaps you should consider shutting you piehole for a while.

So, you got anything else to say? I got more for ya'.

You'll be gone soon enough...

 

[George Affleck]

That was a confusing mess.

How about you tell me what the Father is.
You say He is a Person, but is He Spirit, or what do you say?

God is a spirit. Jhn 4:24KJV
He is also personal Jeremiah 9:24KJV

The Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit are spirit.
The Word is spirit and manifested Himself to us via a physical body.

The Holy Spirit and the Word proceeded from the Father.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Apple7,

Trev....you are getting pretty desperate in your denial replies, as of late. Try reading John 10.39 - which informs the reader that the Jews STILL wanted to stone Him even after He proclaimed to Be The Son of God - proving that, in the mind of the Jews, He was still proclaiming to be God! Give it up.

I agree that they still wanted to stone him because he said that he was the Son of God after he had disproved their first accusation that he was God. This was the same accusation brought against him at the trial. The High Priest was not accusing Jesus of claiming to be God. This is a fable invented by Trinitarians. Even the High Priest understood Jesus claimed that he was the Christ, that is anointed by God, and that he was the Son of God.
Matthew 26:63–66 (KJV): 63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. 64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. 65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy. 66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.

The Hebrew term is 'haelohim', Trev....how many times do we need to go over this before you get it?! The longer you keep dancing around the original word that you are arguing over, the sillier you look to everyone.

You attempt to hide behind your supposed superior knowledge of the Hebrew, but fail to address that Exodus 21:6 and Exodus 22:8-9 is speaking about the Judges representing God and the plurality here in Elohim is not the Trinity. When Elohim is used for God Himself it is singular as in Genesis 1:27.

I notice again that you did not directly answer why Hebrews 2:7 translates Psalm 8:5 as Angels. You prefer your faulty exegesis to the Divinely inspired translation.

Kind regards
Trevor