Christians worship Christ; JW's do not!

[KingdomRose]

Why do you believe Jesus is Michael? Thanks

Because I believe that Jesus Christ is the only Person in the universe that deserves to be chosen by God to "stand up" for his people. To say that Jesus is not Michael means that there is another Person that has the authority to mediate between God and men. To say that Jesus is not Michael means that you are calling another Person equal to Jesus in authority.

At Daniel chapter 12 Michael is directly linked to the Great Tribulation. In Jesus' discussion of this Great Tribulation, e.g., Matthew chapter 24, there is no mention of another individual coming with him in power and glory to do away with the wicked people. Have you seen anybody else said to be coming with Jesus? How could Daniel 12 be talking about someone else? Anyone who says Michael is equal to Jesus is obviously taking away Jesus' unique position. Therefore it stands to reason that Michael is the name Jesus has in heaven. Do you think that there is someone else that deserves Jesus' position? I don't.

"And at that time [the time of the end] shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Daniel 12:1,2, KJV)

 

[KingdomRose]

They certainly do. And I have posted news articles about that on another forum.
I read a recent news article where the Pope accused the child victims of slander. That was hurtful enough and the children felt victimized all over again by what he said. He later issued an apology after coming under pressure and the public outcry but the damage was done, too little too late. That alone says a lot about Pope Francis.


The Governing Body of JWs has vowed to never change their two witness rule. So things will continue to be business as usual. Children will continue to be victimized and the Governing Body will continue to sweep it under the rug, hide it and lie about it. And that says a lot about the Governing Body.

The Governing Body sticks to the two witness rule---how unfortunate? Isn't that Scriptural? What if a person is innocent and there is one person lying about him? A second witness would be needed to corroborate the accuser's story. That protects an innocent accused person.

The G.B. does not lie about things. They know God hates a liar, and they will not lie.

"There are six things the LORD hates, yes, seven are an abomination to him; haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood; a heart that plots wicked schemes, feet that run swiftly to evil, the false witness who utters lies, and he who sows discord among brothers." (Proverbs 6::16-19, NAB)


It has been my own experience that molesters are turned over to the police. A man I knew well spent years in jail for what he did.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Because I believe that Jesus Christ is the only Person in the universe that deserves to be chosen by God to "stand up" for his people. To say that Jesus is not Michael means that there is another Person that has the authority to mediate between God and men. To say that Jesus is not Michael means that you are calling another Person equal to Jesus in authority.

At Daniel chapter 12 Michael is directly linked to the Great Tribulation. In Jesus' discussion of this Great Tribulation, e.g., Matthew chapter 24, there is no mention of another individual coming with him in power and glory to do away with the wicked people. Have you seen anybody else said to be coming with Jesus? How could Daniel 12 be talking about someone else? Anyone who says Michael is equal to Jesus is obviously taking away Jesus' unique position. Therefore it stands to reason that Michael is the name Jesus has in heaven. Do you think that there is someone else that deserves Jesus' position? I don't.

"And at that time [the time of the end] shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Daniel 12:1,2, KJV)

More of your JW Cult non-sense.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

What does "Rep Power" mean? Could you explain that to me? I haven't noticed that.

Your 'Rep-power' is zero. Basically, that is an indication that nobody believes what you're preaching, except for Meshak, most likely. It also means that, posters like myself continue to give you 'Neg-reps' because you're a known Cultist and don't have the truth in you.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

KR, as a consequence of your being a 'JW Cultist' you're not allowed to post in the 'Exclusively Christian' area of TOL.

 

[KingdomRose]

Isn't Alpha and Omega beginning and ending?


So you believe God has beginning and ending?

@NWL

this is for you too.

thanks.

The meaning of "beginning and ending" is somewhat different than your apparent understanding. It doesn't mean that God had a beginning and will have an ending. This title means that before Jehovah there was no Almighty God, and there will be none after him.

"This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies: 'I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.' (Isaiah 44:6)

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

You make yourself out to be a teacher, and a teacher you are, a false teacher.

Meshak rejects Paul's writings and the Gospel that he preaches, basically.

 

[KingdomRose]

Revelation 1 KJV
(17) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
(18) I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


Isaiah 41 KJV
(4) Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.


Isaiah 44 KJV
(6) Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.


Isaiah 48:12 KJV
(12) Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

You haven't done your homework, as usual. Revelation 1:17,18 does not say "Alpha and Omega," as you would know if you examined the original Greek in an Interlinear Version. The words "first and the last" are NOT the Greek "Alpha and Omega." Check it out. Isaiah 41 and 44 and 48 refer to Jehovah only, and this carries over into Revelation 1:8; 21:6; 22:13. Rev.1:17,18 is the only verse that refers to Jesus. And as I said, the Greek words "Alpha and Omega" do not occur there in the original text.

 

[KingdomRose]

Does it not take money for all the printed literature that JWs pass out?

Those are not wages that support the brothers and their families. They all work for a living. The literature is given FREE, and if someone wants to donate a something, they may. JWs give what they can, and mostly a very small amount. It's amazing how little it takes, on the part of each JW, to keep the Kingdom Halls running and the literature printed. Members of the churches in Christendom are getting ripped off with their paid clergy and the demand for tithes. It's quite a racket!

 

[KingdomRose]

I know, it's just too hard to read verses when they don't come exactly like you want them to. :chuckle:

The Word was God and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us is so very hard to figure out.

It's too hard for you to understand the way to properly translate Greek into English. John didn't say that the Word was THE God. There is no definite article before "god" in the phrase "and the word was god." Therefore correct translation would place an English INDEFINITE article there, as this "god" has no definite article designating that this "god" is THE God.

So....the Word is NOT the Almighty God. And it is THE WORD that came to dwell among us, not THE God. The Scripture does not say that THE God came in the flesh. Do some research.

 

[JudgeRightly]

It's too hard for you to understand the way to properly translate Greek into English. John didn't say that the Word was THE God. There is no definite article before "god" in the phrase "and the word was god." Therefore correct translation would place an English INDEFINITE article there, as this "god" has no definite article designating that this "god" is THE God.

So....the Word is NOT the Almighty God. And it is THE WORD that came to dwell among us, not THE God. The Scripture does not say that THE God came in the flesh. Do some research.

Which just shows how much you know about the Greek text.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. - John 1:1 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John1:1&version=NKJV

The above is not how the original Greek was worded (pardon the pun).

Here is how the Greek reads:

ʼΕν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεός ἦν ὁ Λόγος.

In[the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and God was the word.

(The Greek uses τὸν Θεόν, which literally translates as "the god," as there's no Greek word for YHWH.)

KR, examine the two following sentences:

"The father and the husband went to the store."

"The father and husband went to the store."

Tell me, KR, how many people is the first sentence speaking of? The second sentence?

 

[truthjourney]

Those are not wages that support the brothers and their families. They all work for a living. The literature is given FREE, and if someone wants to donate a something, they may. JWs give what they can, and mostly a very small amount. It's amazing how little it takes, on the part of each JW, to keep the Kingdom Halls running and the literature printed. Members of the churches in Christendom are getting ripped off with their paid clergy and the demand for tithes. It's quite a racket!

How quickly you condemn and say that members of the churches in Christendom are getting ripped off with their paid clergy and the demand for tithes. Yet you have failed to research the Watchtower Society to find out how they have amassed billions of dollars, which is not surprising that you are not aware of how that was done.

Though condemning the world's commercial system as part of Satan's system, the Watchtower Society has not held back from utilising it to the fullest, in the process becoming a multi-billion dollar organization. In 2010, the valuation of Watchtower real-estate in Brooklyn alone exceeded a billion dollars. By claiming religious or charity status, the billions earned over the last century have been largely tax free.

The Watchtower Society has used stocks, bonds and trusts as investment vehicles. One such trust was the H M Riley Trust, from the deceased estate of Henrietta Riley.

This trust trades in a wide spread of bonds and shares in companies such as Exxon Mobil, Coca Cola, Proctor & Gamble, Phillip Morris (one of the world's largest cigarette manufacturers) and Cardinal Health (who supply medical equipment including for blood transfusions.)

In 2007, Watchtower had an SEC filing for a $40 million dollar hedge fund through K2 STB Fund Ltd, located in the Cayman Islands. ......Note of interest: The Cayman Islands has become a popular tax haven among the American elite and large multinational corporations because there is no corporate or income tax on money earned outside of its territory.

Shares have also been held in Rand, a supplier to the U.S. Department of Defence, as shown by a SEC filing as of 20th Feb 2015.

Watchtower was an attendee at the Goldman Sachs 2012 Growth Markets Summit, Growth Markets Insights: Shaping Global Investment Themes.

So we have a clearer picture of how the Watchtower Society has amassed billions of dollars.

 

[truthjourney]

The Governing Body sticks to the two witness rule---how unfortunate? Isn't that Scriptural? What if a person is innocent and there is one person lying about him? A second witness would be needed to corroborate the accuser's story. That protects an innocent accused person.

Yes it is unfortunate to say the least. What if a child is raped and there are no witnesses? Explain to me if you can how the two witness rule could possibly apply to a case like that. What the two witness rule does in a case like that is to protect the perpetrator and also puts other children at risk. It also brings shame and guilt on the Governing Body. Because their two witness policy on child molestation fails to protect JW children as well as children in households where JWs go to do their....preaching work.

It has been my own experience that molesters are turned over to the police. A man I knew well spent years in jail for what he did.

Apparently you are not very well informed on matters pertaining to your own religion. The Governing Body has sent letters to elders in all congregations on how to deal with child sex abuse within the organization. They said such things like "there is a time to keep quiet" and to keep things "confidential". And of course the elders are doing exactly that.
Luke 8:17 "For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, neither hidden that will not be made known and come into the open."

How could you defend the Governing Body's two witness rule that puts children at such great risk and ruins their lives. It destroys them. As one of them said it is like murder because it kills the person inside.

Did you even watch the W5 Documentary that I posted? These people deserve to at least be heard instead of being silenced.

 

[meshak]

Ok, but I'm sorry I don't agree with you regarding Paul, I read his epistles often, and I can hear the Spirit in him, and he gave up all for Christ and suffered to bare witness to the truth and truly follow Jesus, and I know that he is a true apostle and a strong man of God.

I believe that Paul had to suffer that much to pay for the consequences for what he did to His followers.

He did not have much choice if he wanted be in God's kingdom.

I don't believe he will be with the original servants of Jesus when the time comes.

 

[marhig]

I believe that Paul had to suffer that much to pay for the consequences for what he did to His followers.

He did not have much choice if he wanted be in God's kingdom.

I don't believe he will be with the original servants of Jesus when the time comes.

How can you say Paul isn't of God?

Listen to the Spirit in him here,

The love chapter, 1 Corinthians 13

13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

 

[drbrumley]

I don't believe he will be with the original servants of Jesus when the time comes.

What does this even mean? Original servants?

 

[drbrumley]

How can you say Paul isn't of God?

Listen to the Spirit in him here,

The love chapter, 1 Corinthians 13

13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

:up:

 

[meshak]

How can you say Paul isn't of God?

Listen to the Spirit in him here,

The love chapter, 1 Corinthians 13

13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Because Paul established the organization, I stand my position.

 

[drbrumley]

Because Paul established the organization, I stand my position.

No, Jesus established the organization. Get it right....

 

[truthjourney]

MPs are demanding government action after more than 100 people contacted the Guardian with allegations of child sexual abuse and other mistreatment in Jehovah’s Witness communities in the UK.
Mon 26 Mar 2018

“I am extremely concerned, but not surprised, by the allegations of child abuse within the Jehovah’s Witness movement. Whenever there is a closed society with an inherent power imbalance, the potential for abuse is there,” said the Labour MP Sarah Champion.
She said she would be raising the issue in parliament and demanding that the government take action to make sure all children were safe.
Alex Chalk, the Conservative MP for Cheltenham, said he planned to raise the issue in parliament, saying it was not just a historical issue but an ongoing child safety concern.

The Guardian was told that members of the community were taught to avoid interaction with outside authorities. It was also claimed that, according to rules set by the group, for child sexual abuse to be taken seriously there must be at least two witnesses to it. If that happened or a perpetrator admitted abuse, a judicial committee would be called and the case investigated.

A solicitor representing some of the alleged victims said she believed there were thousands of complainants in the UK and that the people who had contacted the Guardian were “just the tip of the iceberg”.

She also expressed concern that abuse claims could only be taken before a committee for investigation if there were two witnesses to it. “Abuse happens in the shadows, so to ask for a second witness is ludicrous and effectively prevents reporting,” Champion said.

Several more alleged victims came forward after the initial claims were published. One woman, speaking anonymously, said: “I’m a former Jehovah’s Witness and know personally of two girls who were abused and silenced within their congregations.”

Another woman, also speaking under the condition of anonymity, said she tried to kill herself when she was 14 after being abused by her father. “I found an old article in the Awake magazine on abuse in the congregation library and left it open for the elder. I had left the same article for my father at one stage hoping he would read it and stop. When it was found out, I too was subjected to being told not to say anything and a cover-up. In my case the evidence was also destroyed by the elders,” she said.

She said she was told never to speak to anyone about what happened and was not given any counselling. “I asked the elders privately if I could go live with a friend’s family ... and they said I had to ask my father as he was the head of the household.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ction-over-jehovahs-witness-abuse-allegations