Christians worship Christ; JW's do not!

[God's Truth]

So a husband and wife becoming "one" means they are now the same person?

Your logic sucks.

You just proved with that analogy that you make more than one God.

 

[drbrumley]

I have tried my best to show on TOL what I see in scripture but now they will not allow me to express my point of view. I gave arguments that management disapproved of becauseit destroyed their traditions, but it is truth.

well I allow you....iron sharpens iron and all that.

 

[keypurr]

Why don't you ask HIM that?

God the father can't die, for sure...

God took on the form of man, that includes all the trappings (joy, sorrow, hungry, cold, hot etc...)

I cannot help it if you reject that.

God did not take the form of Man, he sent his Son (logos) to do that.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Joh 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

Joh 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

Joh 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Joh 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

God did not come to us himself, HE SENT HIS SON.

 

[JudgeRightly]

You just proved with that analogy that you make more than one God.

Red herring, GT, you said "one means the same", I said it doesn't, because if it did mean "the same", then a husband and wife become the same person, which CLEARLY isn't the case. They remain two separate persons, while becoming one FLESH.

HUSBAND AND WIFE BECOMING ONE FLESH: ONE WHAT, TWO WHOS, YET STILL TWO INDIVIDUAL PERSONS.

The onus probandi is on you to show that "one" ALWAYS means "the same."

Go on, GT, everyone is waiting.

 

[keypurr]

well I allow you....iron sharpens iron and all that.

Thank you Doc, management here has been very good to me here, and there are times when I came on very strong in my faith. I understand why they would want to shut me up as I am most likely a danger to their comfort. I sincerely love everyone even if we disagree, but I must do God's work and express his love and truth to all.

 

[God's Truth]

Red herring, GT, you said "one means the same", I said it doesn't, because if it did mean "the same", then a husband and wife become the same person, which CLEARLY isn't the case. They remain two separate persons, while becoming one FLESH.

HUSBAND AND WIFE BECOMING ONE FLESH: ONE WHAT, TWO WHOS, YET STILL TWO INDIVIDUAL PERSONS.

The onus probandi is on you to show that "one" ALWAYS means "the same."

Go on, GT, everyone is waiting.

Husband and wife become one flesh but they are still two separate people.

Are you sure you want to keep using a husband and wife analogy?

One means the same.

 

[God's Truth]

Why don't the trinitarians deal with this:

Is the Father Spirit, or is He an essence that you don't know and He has a separate Spirit called the Holy Spirit? Same thing about Jesus, please answer.

 

[George Affleck]

Red herring, GT, you said "one means the same", I said it doesn't, because if it did mean "the same", then a husband and wife become the same person, which CLEARLY isn't the case. They remain two separate persons, while becoming one FLESH.

HUSBAND AND WIFE BECOMING ONE FLESH: ONE WHAT, TWO WHOS, YET STILL TWO INDIVIDUAL PERSONS.

The onus probandi is on you to show that "one" ALWAYS means "the same."

Go on, GT, everyone is waiting.

The problem here is understanding the word "person" (admittedly a poor one) as it applies in the theological sense instead of the mortal sense.
Although probably no better, but at least shedding a bit of light on the subject are the words "office" or "administration".
The problem with these words is that they do not convey the "personal" aspect.

If we can get past the idea that the word "person" represents all that can be said, it helps. For example, we accept that someone may address others in the first person, the second person, or the third person. These are conventions which do not limit or segment the essence of the speaker, but rather, address the limitations of the hearer regarding a subject matter.
Similarly, we receive from infinite God, according to our limitations, not His.

The "persons" (administrations) of the trinity are not parts, segments or aspects of a whole but, rather, personal applications of the redemptive process, designed to address our sinful condition and limited understanding, as the godhead sees fit.

Having a problem with the trinity always boils down to having a problem with the English word "person".

 

[God's Truth]

The problem here is understanding the word "person" (admittedly a poor one) as it applies in the theological sense instead of the mortal sense.
Although probably no better, but at least shedding a bit of light on the subject are the words "office" or "administration".
The problem with these words is that they do not convey the "personal" aspect.

If we can get past the idea that the word "person" represents all that can be said, it helps. For example, we accept that someone may address others in the first person, the second person, or the third person. These are conventions which do not limit or segment the essence of the speaker, but rather, address the limitations of the hearer regarding a subject matter.
Similarly, we receive from infinite God, according to our limitations, not His.

The "persons" (administrations) of the trinity are not parts, segments or aspects of a whole but, rather, personal applications of the redemptive process, designed to address our sinful condition and limited understanding, as the godhead sees fit.

Having a problem with the trinity always boils down to having a problem with the English word "person".

That was a confusing mess.

How about you tell me what the Father is.
You say He is a Person, but is He Spirit, or what do you say?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Apple7,

The Trinitarian English rendering that you keep slavishly reposting, because you trust it completely, already proves Jesus' deity.
The very context that you, yourself, provided, clearly shows that the only blasphemous things said in this passage revolve around the Jewish denial of Jesus' deity.
Jesus never once denied His deity - in fact, He provoked the Jews into claiming that He was God, of which, they claimed was blasphemy because they thought he was just a mere man.
The second instance of blasphemy is directed back at the Jews for denying that He was the Son of God, of which, they already made the connection that The Son of God IS God.
That is why the Jews wanted to stone Jesus.
Jesus clearly claimed to be God (John 10.33) The Son (John 10.36).

They accused him that he was claiming to be God, but he answered that what he had said was that he was the Son of God.
John 10:30,33,36 (KJV): 30 I and my Father are one. 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
You seem to want to side with Jesus’ accusers in order to support the Trinity. Jesus rejected their accusation. Even Trinitarian translators do not distort Jesus’ words here. Jesus is the Son of God.

Look at your open admission that not all translators side with your worldview of 'judges' being the rendering of choice.
In fact, over half the translators today render the word 'GOD' in lieu of 'judges'....why?
What do they know that you do not?
Time to start studying the original languages so that you can think for yourself, Trev...

What in the world do these passages have to do with 'haelohim', Trev...?
These passages use entirely different Hebrew terms!
What a desperate attempt on your part....

The NASB translates Elohim in Exodus 21:6 and Exodus 22:8-9 as God but has the marginal note: Or, the judges who acted in God’s name. At least they have taken one step towards understanding these verses.

Don't get mad, Trev.... The original Hebrew word refers to God, as I exegeted to you, at least twice. Any serious student of scripture always examines the original text to see if the translation was true. You, however, do not...as it utterly destroys your favorite polemic.

I notice that you did not answer why Hebrews 2:7 translates Psalm 8:5 as Angels. You prefer your faulty exegesis to the Divinely inspired translation.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[God's Truth]

No trinitarian wants to answer that question because they can't.

The trinitarian doctrine says the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all three different and separate persons. The trinitarian doctrine says the Father isn't Spirit, the Son isn't Spirit, but it says that the Holy Spirit is a person and a Spirit. That makes the Father a what? That makes Jesus a what? The trinitarian doctrine says the Holy Spirit is a person and a Spirit; I get that, but then it makes the Father and Son what? Not only that since the trinitarian doctrine says Jesus' spirit was not God's Spirit---tell me how that does not make four instead of three.

 

[God's Truth]

Maybe this would help explain the three being one:

Imagine the sun being the Father who is Spirit, the light going forth from the sun/the Father is called the Holy Spirit, and Jesus Christ is the Holy Spirit/God the Father with a body.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Husband and wife become one flesh but they are still two separate people.

THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I JUST SAID, GT.

Are you sure you want to keep using a husband and wife analogy?

Yes

One means the same.

So the husband and wife becomes one person? Because that's what you're saying. You're contradicting yourself, GT.

 

[God's Truth]

THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I JUST SAID, GT.



Yes



So the husband and wife becomes one person? Because that's what you're saying. You're contradicting yourself, GT.

Husband and wife are still separate and distinct two different people which proves your beliefs make three different Gods.

 

[God's Truth]

Imagine the sun being the Father who is Spirit, the light going forth from the sun/the Father is called the Holy Spirit, and Jesus Christ is the Holy Spirit/God the Father with a body.

We humans are not two different persons making one. We are our spirit and we have a flesh body.

We are two and one the same. We are flesh and spirit. We are not as a husband and wife analogy. God is not like a husband and wife analogy. Our flesh is just a vessel for our spirit. Don't you remember that Paul calls our physical body a tent? Our flesh isn't 'another' us, just as Jesus' physical body is just a vessel for the one and only Spirit and not a different God, as the trinitarians say.

 

[God's Truth]

JudgeRighty comparing the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to a husband and wife is just wrong, because a husband and wife becoming one flesh is not becoming one spirit. Comparing God to a husband and wife scenario proves my case. We ARE our spirit. God is His Spirit. God's Spirit isn't another Spirit, it is Him.

 

[God's Truth]

That was a confusing mess.

How about you tell me what the Father is.
You say He is a Person, but is He Spirit, or what do you say?

Notice George Affleck did not answer me, and the other trinitarians did not.

Satan doesn't want you all to understand.

A PERSON is their SPIRIT. Their flesh/body is just their vehicle. God the Father is Spirit, and Jesus is just God the Father come in a body/vehicle/tent.

 

[God's Truth]

Jesus is God the Father with a body.

God the Father came in the flesh as a man.

Jesus says his words are Spirit.

Jesus also says the flesh counts for nothing.

John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you--they are full of the Spirit and life.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Husband and wife are still separate and distinct two different people which proves your beliefs make three different Gods.

No, GT, I'm not saying three different Gods. I'm aaying three different persons, ONE God.

Three WHOs, one WHAT!

JUST LIKE THE HUSBAND AND WIFE ARE TWO WHOS AND ONE WHAT.

NOW ANSWER MY CHALLENGE TO YOU AND SHOW THAT "ONE" ALWAYS MEANS "THE SAME".

 

[God's Truth]

No, GT, I'm not saying three different Gods. I'm aaying three different persons, ONE God.

Three WHOs, one WHAT!

JUST LIKE THE HUSBAND AND WIFE ARE TWO WHOS AND ONE WHAT.

NOW ANSWER MY CHALLENGE TO YOU AND SHOW THAT "ONE" ALWAYS MEANS "THE SAME".

I already answered you.

OUR FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING.

The husband and wife become one flesh but the are still spirit and not the same spirit.

The Father and Jesus ARE THE SAME PERSON AND A PERSON is their SPIRIT.

Go check out the FE thread because you aren't getting it here.