Can a person loose their salvation?

[God's Truth]

:rotfl:

I will be here all week.

browser - the software application you are using to read this post. e.g., Google Chrome, Microsoft Edge, Opera, Apple Safari.

tab - a graphical object resembling a tab, as on a manilla file folder, located at the top of your browser. There is one tab for each new web page that you may have opened.

Below is an example of a browser with three open tabs (click the image to enlarge):

View attachment 25489

Right-click on one of the tabs in your browser to see a menu of all the possibilities for manipulating these tabs.

For example, when I respond to a post in a thread, I always right click the reply buttons and select "open in a new tab" option so as to not lose my place in the thread I am reviewing. This does not apply if I am responding to one of the last posts in a thread, of course.

AMR

Can you make a special thread for this? Should you be sent to the woodshed for this?

 

[Lon]

Here it is again Lon.

I read ALL of your post and interacted with it. All I asked you was to thoughtfully read. -Lon

 

[Tambora]

I think Jesus told Peter 3 times to feed His sheep, to let Him know 3 times He loved Him and would still be using Him even though Peter 3 times rejected Him, showing Him His love and mercy.

I wonder how many people notice that there are two different words for "love" in those passages?

John 21:15 KJV
(15) So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.


agapo ​G25

phileo G5368

 

[God's Truth]

I wonder how many people notice that there are two different words for "love" in those passages?

John 21:15 KJV
(15) So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.


agapo ​G25

phileo G5368

We only need to know English.

 

[Tambora]

We only need to know English.

Then you go right ahead and explain in English why two different words were used.

 

[Tambora]

Can a person lose their salvation?

Not when salvation is eternal life.
If you could lose it, it would be temporary, not ETERNAL.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Wonderful Agreement Assumed

Wonderful Agreement Assumed

How about YOU comment on other people's posts about losing salvation?

Why is it that you post something about losing salvation and you not post on what other people say about this topic?

Post on what I said and not on other people putting me down.

Given that you have provided no response to my post on the matter I have assumed you are in full agreement with it. In other words,

How about YOU comment on other people's posts, mine, about losing salvation? Why is it that you post something about losing salvation and you do not post on what I have to say about this topic?

Why God's Truth is Confused

AMR

 

[steko]

Can a person lose their salvation?

Not when salvation is eternal life.
If you could lose it, it would be temporary, not ETERNAL.

:thumb: Exactly!!

 

[Shasta]

What do you think?

Yes

 

[intojoy]

Can the Good Shepherd lose a sheep? I thought only the hireling does.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Yes

What can be "LOST" was never "FOUND".

Spoiler

Mokey vs. Cat Faith

When Western theists ask about “God”, they are usually referring to an all-powerful, intervening, all-knowing, personal, all-loving and yet historically easily-angered, jealous and dangerous god. This story illustrates a different notion of the divine.

Just as in Christianity, there are many different denominations of Hinduism with each believing very different theologies. One Hindu analogy to illustrate their different theologies is Monkey vs. Cat Religions.3 During my two years in India and Pakistan I heard this explanation several times when debating religion with Sadhus ! 3

cat_carries_kitty

Have you ever seen a baby cat carried by its mother? What does the kitten do? The kitten does nothing — it just submissively hangs there in surrender while the mother carries it all around. Thus in cat religions, the believer is dependent upon the god for salvation and for grace. One only need to surrender and the mother (the god) protects and saves the baby. There are two main Hindu sects: Vaishnavism (worship of Vishnu) and Shaivism (worship of Shiva). The Vaishnavite embrace a Cat God — Vishnu whom the hope their faith, adoration and surrender to secures them a good life and salvation. Sound familiar?

monkey_on_mom

On the other hand, imagine how a mother monkey carries her baby — she doesn’t! The mother monkey actually barely pays attention to the baby monkey. The baby monkey must hold on for dear life. Thus in monkey religions, salvation is made by the effort of the believer. The god (here the monkey) is available for sustenance while not even being aware of the believer — this god is not personal and has no people-like traits of knowing, loving, hating, desiring or even acting. Here god is seen as a source of strength and love but a source that only is available by participation of the individual.

In Christianity, this sounds like the old works vs. grace debate. And even in Hinduism, sometimes it boils down to that. ( Wow, surprise, the human mind, be it a Hindu’s or Christian’s wrestles with the same dichotomies ! ) But some forms of Hinduism and Buddhism have a model of the “divine” as I just described where the word “grace” does not even make sense — for grace must be supplied by a person-like entity. And in the Monkey Religions I am discussing, there is no active role of the Divine — the divine is only sustenance, it is not a caring, intervening, all-knowing, person-like being. Yet the believers in this “Monkey God” appear as “spiritual” as the “Cat God” folks, but in their heads, they are doing very different things than the Christian theist.

Link to Reference of Cat vs. Monkey Faith article

 

[Shasta]

Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
Can a person lose their salvation?

Not when salvation is eternal life.
If you could lose it, it would be temporary, not ETERNAL.

[=steko;4964798]:thumb: Exactly!!

"Eternal life" is not an endless extension of existence which is received as a once for all endowment. Jesus Himself IS the Life and AS WE ABIDE in Him we share His life. Final eternal life is a reward that is given to us at the end of our lives when we are judged. Regarding eternal life as a final reward Paul has this to say.

6 He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
(Romans 2:6-8)

Works
Since Paul would not say Christians are required to perform meritorious works of the Mosaic Law I take "works" to mean our actions or, more generally, how we live our lives.

patience in well-doing
Well-doing involves much more than just praying the "sinner's prayer" and making a one-time profession of faith. "Well doing" involves activities of all kinds while patience means "endurance." Our first step of faith is supposed to be followed up by a walk of faith trusting in and obeying Christ as we are led by the Holy Spirit.

seek for glory and honor and immortality
This goes to our motives. Are we seeking first the Kingdom of Heaven and His righteousness or are we "self-seeking?" Are we living for this present age only or for the age to come? As Jesus said, our motives will be taken into account at the judgement.

Now lest we come to the conclusion that obeying Christ is an option for those particularly ambitious Christians who want extra "jewels in their crown" and that a person who is saved can live any way they wish and even be raptured out of a bed of adultery when Jesus comes, the Apostle goes on:

to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

The reward for a life submitted to Christ is not MERELY rulership over one city verses ten but eternal life itself. Here we see that while we hold the gift of eternal life now we do so provisionally. It is the same with our adoption. We "hold the promise" but the Resurrection is the reality of the promise.

Finally the Apostle says the following:

to those who do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

I have heard people say that "a true believer" WOULD not pursue a lifestyle of sin. This is naive and contrary to scripture and experience. Many do just that and say that it does not matter because they have been forgiven for all sins past, present and future so that when God looks at them He sees only Christ's righteousness. This is the false doctrine of antinomianism that Paul warned us not to be deceived about in Galatians 6:6-7. In this passage also the practice of "sowing to the Spirit" will in the future reap the reward of eternal life (Galatians 6:8)

 

[Lazy afternoon]

I read ALL of your post and interacted with it. All I asked you was to thoughtfully read. -Lon

No, you avoided the words of Christ because you think the saved do not need any warnings about the possibility of them losing the spirit of salvation.

One would not need this below if ones being saved through an initial believing only was true--


2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

"Eternal life" is not an endless extension of existence which is received as a once for all endowment. Jesus Himself IS the Life and AS WE ABIDE in Him we share His life. Final eternal life is a reward that is given to us at the end of our lives when we are judged. Regarding eternal life as a final reward Paul has this to say.

6 He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
(Romans 2:6-8)

Works
Since Paul would not say Christians are required to perform meritorious works of the Mosaic Law I take "works" to mean our actions or, more generally, how we live our lives.

patience in well-doing
Well-doing involves much more than just praying the "sinner's prayer" and making a one-time profession of faith. "Well doing" involves activities of all kinds while patience means "endurance." Our first step of faith is supposed to be followed up by a walk of faith trusting in and obeying Christ as we are led by the Holy Spirit.

seek for glory and honor and immortality
This goes to our motives. Are we seeking first the Kingdom of Heaven and His righteousness or are we "self-seeking?" Are we living for this present age only or for the age to come? As Jesus said, our motives will be taken into account at the judgement.

Now lest we come to the conclusion that obeying Christ is an option for those particularly ambitious Christians who want extra "jewels in their crown" and that a person who is saved can live any way they wish and even be raptured out of a bed of adultery when Jesus comes, the Apostle goes on:

to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

The reward for a life submitted to Christ is not rulership over one city verses ten but eternal life itself. Here we see that while we hold the gift of eternal life now we do so provisionally. It is the same with our adoption. We "hold the promise" but the Resurrection is the reality of the promise.

Finally the Apostle says the following:

to those who do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

I have heard people say that "a true believer" WOULD not pursue a lifestyle of sin. This is naive and contrary to scripture and experience. Many do just that and say that, at any rate, it does not matter because they have been forgiven for all sins past, present and future. This is the false doctrine of antinomianism that Paul warned us about in Galatians 6:6-7. Here too he says that the practice of "sowing to the Spirit will reap (in the future) eternal life (Galatians 6:8)

Exactly.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Lon, please consider what your enemies have being saying to you.

Your enemy's point is Jesus' teachings to practice which is the theme of Christianity.

Why do you claim to be a christian and call Christians your enemy? Common thing though for Jehovah witnesses to do - they use the word often.

 

[Shasta]

Can the Good Shepherd lose a sheep? I thought only the hireling does.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

When the Bible speaks of Sheep "following the Shepherd" it shows them doing so willingly. They are not bound to the shepherd with unbreakable chains. Besides, in that small company of only twelve disciples even Jesus lost one.

 

[Shasta]

What can be "LOST" was never "FOUND".

Spoiler

Mokey vs. Cat Faith

When Western theists ask about “God”, they are usually referring to an all-powerful, intervening, all-knowing, personal, all-loving and yet historically easily-angered, jealous and dangerous god. This story illustrates a different notion of the divine.

Just as in Christianity, there are many different denominations of Hinduism with each believing very different theologies. One Hindu analogy to illustrate their different theologies is Monkey vs. Cat Religions.3 During my two years in India and Pakistan I heard this explanation several times when debating religion with Sadhus ! 3

cat_carries_kitty

Have you ever seen a baby cat carried by its mother? What does the kitten do? The kitten does nothing — it just submissively hangs there in surrender while the mother carries it all around. Thus in cat religions, the believer is dependent upon the god for salvation and for grace. One only need to surrender and the mother (the god) protects and saves the baby. There are two main Hindu sects: Vaishnavism (worship of Vishnu) and Shaivism (worship of Shiva). The Vaishnavite embrace a Cat God — Vishnu whom the hope their faith, adoration and surrender to secures them a good life and salvation. Sound familiar?

monkey_on_mom

On the other hand, imagine how a mother monkey carries her baby — she doesn’t! The mother monkey actually barely pays attention to the baby monkey. The baby monkey must hold on for dear life. Thus in monkey religions, salvation is made by the effort of the believer. The god (here the monkey) is available for sustenance while not even being aware of the believer — this god is not personal and has no people-like traits of knowing, loving, hating, desiring or even acting. Here god is seen as a source of strength and love but a source that only is available by participation of the individual.

In Christianity, this sounds like the old works vs. grace debate. And even in Hinduism, sometimes it boils down to that. ( Wow, surprise, the human mind, be it a Hindu’s or Christian’s wrestles with the same dichotomies ! ) But some forms of Hinduism and Buddhism have a model of the “divine” as I just described where the word “grace” does not even make sense — for grace must be supplied by a person-like entity. And in the Monkey Religions I am discussing, there is no active role of the Divine — the divine is only sustenance, it is not a caring, intervening, all-knowing, person-like being. Yet the believers in this “Monkey God” appear as “spiritual” as the “Cat God” folks, but in their heads, they are doing very different things than the Christian theist.

Link to Reference of Cat vs. Monkey Faith article

This saying is just an assertion of your belief. It does nothing to support it.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

This saying is just an assertion of your belief. It does nothing to support it.

What is a "Gift"? How much does it cost its' recipient?

(Eph. 2:8f, John 6:29; 63)

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Exactly.

John 8:36

You are a Liar, like your daddy.

You would have the saved be in fear of not being saved!

 

[intojoy]

When the Bible speaks of Sheep "following the Shepherd" it shows them doing so willingly. They are not bound to the shepherd with unbreakable chains. Besides, in that small company of only twelve disciples even Jesus lost one.

Hehe


Sent from my iPhone using TOL