Calvinists' Dilemma
- Thread starter Samie
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Derf
Well-known member
That's what I thought I was doing. I responded to both of your posts, putting the verses in context and pointing out what I thought was wrong with your use of them.
Now it's your turn to explain why I am wrong.
If you were in sync with the Scriptures, you would be Reformed.
It's just that simple, really. You all make a thousand threads demonizing the inevitable. The Bible has Tulip written all over it like a fingerprint, I don't know how one can sit there and deny what is utterly incontrovertible.
beloved57
Well-known member
You thought wrong. Explain to me what the points are I made.
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I am reformed, as per Scriptures, not what you think what a Reformed is.
Your Tulip all over Scriptures? So why can't you point even one verse that hints people are born dead in sin? You even ran away from a post directly addressed to you because you can find no haven from Scriptures.
All mouth and no Scriptures makes no sense at all.
There is a difference between being cursed through ancestral sin, and being 'born a sinner'. A person is not actually born a sinner, for a very obvious reason- you have to first sin to be sinner.
Amazingly simple, but people have gotten carried away with calling it something else.
Total depravity is something due to the curse of Original Sin. This is something agreed upon by both Arminians and Calvinists- about the only thing they do agree on actually.
Derf
Well-known member
I'm sorry, but if you don't understand the points you made, how am I going to be able to help you understand them better.
beloved57
Well-known member
Then you are wasting my time !
Derf
Well-known member
I guess so. That's why you started this conversation, right? http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?117063-Calvinists-Dilemma&p=4690882&viewfull=1#post4690882
If you're looking for someone to argue with, I can oblige you, I suppose, but if you're looking for someone to make your arguments for you, I don't think I qualify. I doubt I would do them justice.
beloved57
Well-known member
Look,if you don't want to discuss the points I made, leave me alone.
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Derf
Well-known member
Ok you're funny enough that I'm intrigued. Tell me what your points are again, 'cause when I was already leaving you alone, you made some points, and I don't remember what they were.
beloved57
Well-known member
Derf
Well-known member
Does that mean you don't want me to post in this thread, or does that mean you don't want me to respond to your posts responding to mine?
And I'm glad you said "please".
beloved57
Well-known member
Do I need to block you out ?
Does that mean you don't want me to post in this thread, or does that mean you don't want me to respond to your posts responding to mine?
And I'm glad you said "please".
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Derf
Well-known member
Maybe you need to. But if you want to actually have a conversation, you should respond to what I said to you instead of getting me to respond to me (that's not a typo). I've quoted our whole conversation below, if it helps any. It reads in reverse chronological order. See if you can figure out where we lost continuity. And just to help, I changed the text color to show the last time either of us said anything intelligent and on topic. You might notice that my last intelligent post is after yours. Should we go back to that point? Or just drop it?
Does that mean you don't want me to post in this thread, or does that mean you don't want me to respond to your posts responding to mine?
And I'm glad you said "please".
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As he was our federal representative, all sinned in Adam, just as if we were really there with him in the garden. Accordingly, all are born sinners, hence we sin. From the teachings of Scripture, this has been the position of the church militant for over a thousand years.
See:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...med-Theology&p=4559007&viewfull=1#post4559007
In general, Arminians and Calvinists are not in agreement at all about the total inability of the lost:
View attachment 24132
[Click to enlarge]
Arminian view of the lost:
Although human nature was seriously affected by the Fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does so in such a manner as not to interfere with man’s freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man’s freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God’s Spirit and be regenerated or resist God’s grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit’s assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe. Faith is the sinner’s gift to God; it is man’s contribution to salvation.
Reformed/Calvinist view of the lost:
Because of the Fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore he will not—indeed he cannot—choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit’s assistance to bring a sinner to Christ—it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive with a new heart. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God’s gift of salvation—it is God’s gift to the sinner, not the sinner’s gift to God. See: Genesis 6:5, Genesis 8:21, Jeremiah 17:9, Psalm 22:29, Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Psalm 130:3, Psalm 143:2, Proverbs 20:9, Job 14:4, Job 15:14-16, Ecclesiastes 7:20,29, Ecclesiastes 9:3, Isaiah 53:6, Isaiah 64:6-7, Jeremiah 13:23, Jeremiah 17:9, 2 Chronicles 6:36, Mark 7:21-23, John 3:3,19,44,65, Romans 3:9-18, Romans 5:6,12, Romans 5:18-19, Romans 6:16-20, Romans 7:18, 23-24, Romans 8:7-8, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Ephesians 2:1-5, Ephesians 4:18, 2 Timothy 2:26-26, 1 John 3:4, 1 John 3:10, 1 John 5:19, Titus 3:3,5.
AMR
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csuguy
Well-known member
Even before Christ came and died for our sins and the general outpouring of the Holy Spirit, yet even then fallen man was capable of keeping the Law, of doing what is good and right. God does not command from us that which is impossible for us. This, among other things, is one of the deep errors of Calvinism - to deny our ability to keep God's commands, to propose that God condemns us for sinning when we have no choice in the matter. They abandon the notions of a loving God, of a just God, in favor of sovereignty above all else.
There are those who are incapable of keeping the Law, as Paul points out:
And thus we find that the determining factor in whether one is able to keep the Law or not is one's heart and mind. Have you set your heart and mind upon God, upon the Spirit? Or are they set upon the flesh, upon worldly things?
Deuteronomy 30:11-20 For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it [q]out of reach. 12 It is not in heaven, [r]that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.
15 “See, I have set before you today life and [t]prosperity, and death and adversity; 16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the Lord your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. 17 But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter [v]and possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may liveyou and your [w]descendants, 20 by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for [x]this is your life and the length of your days, [y]that you may live in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”
15 “See, I have set before you today life and [t]prosperity, and death and adversity; 16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the Lord your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. 17 But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter [v]and possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may liveyou and your [w]descendants, 20 by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for [x]this is your life and the length of your days, [y]that you may live in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”
There are those who are incapable of keeping the Law, as Paul points out:
Romans 8:6-8 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
And thus we find that the determining factor in whether one is able to keep the Law or not is one's heart and mind. Have you set your heart and mind upon God, upon the Spirit? Or are they set upon the flesh, upon worldly things?
they also deny God the ability to create a free will
csuguy
Well-known member
Indeed, they never consider that God, being Sovereign, is capable of limiting himself, of choosing to relinquish some control, so as to provide us the capacity for free-will and such. They probably can't imagine why he might do such a thing - since they are focused on power and authority over all else.