beloved57
Well-known member
Thats a lie, men and women Christ died for are born reconciled to God Rom 5:10 !
Calvinists' Dilemma
- Thread starter Samie
- Start date
Thats a lie, men and women Christ died for are born reconciled to God Rom 5:10 !
Epoisses
New member
Just as sin is passed on to all mankind so the free gift is given to all mankind as an inheritance.
beloved57
Well-known member
Men and Women Christ died for are born reconciled to God while being enemies Rom 5:10 !
beloved57
Well-known member
Those sinners Christ died for are born reconciled to God while they are enemies in sinful bodies Rom 5:10
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Epoisses
New member
#2 is easily proven, read Romans 3.
We have discussed this in another thread and you were not able to show the verse that says people are born spiritually dead in sin.
But if you have already found that verse you were not able to provide in the other thread, then point it to me now, please. What verse(s)?
Epoisses
New member
It does say that but you're to biased to see it.
We don't become sinners, we are born that way.
How could you say I'm biased to see it when I haven't seen one because you haven't pointed to any verse that says people are born spiritually dead in sin?
Epoisses
New member
The verses say exactly that! You just can't see it because you're blinded by your fleshly wisdom.
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. Rom. 3:9-18
All are under sin because they inherited their fallen nature from Adam.
In a healthy discussion, there's really NO need for your last statement, is there?
So those are the verses that, for you, say people are born spiritually dead in sin? Let's try to analyze.
There are THREE (3) groups referred to: 1, the "we"; 2, the Jews; and 3, the Gentiles. The Jews and Gentiles are collectively referred to as "they".
Are the "we" born again? Yes? If Yes, we have the same answer. How about the "they"? Are the "they" born again, too? Your answer could be "No". I answer, "Yes".
Hence, for me, the 3 groups are all born again, that is, they are able to sin and able to not sin, but all three chose to sin.
For you, the "we" are born again, the "they" are not. Yet Paul says the "we" are no better than the "they", hence the 3 groups are in equal footing.
If you answered "Yes" that the "we" are born again, then you agree to my definition of "born again" as being able to sin and able to not sin. If you answered "No", then Paul was not born again, being among the "we". So you have no recourse but to answer "Yes".
So, when were the "we" born again? Your answer could be "when they believed". But believing is not possible for those born spiritually dead in sin because one born spiritually dead in sin is able to sin and not able to not sin. The fact that the "we" were able to believe proves they are able to not sin and therefore born NOT spiritually dead in sin.
It's not the verses I reject. What I reject is the meaning you attach to those verses.
Epoisses
New member
Because you're carnal and want to think you can choose your way to heaven. Keep choosing Christ and presenting your filthy rags before him. Those without the wedding garment are cast out.
God did the choosing for us when on the cross through His Son, He fashioned humanity into the Body of Christ. Being part of His Body, we don't choose our way to heaven because we are already born on our way to heaven. But you refuse to believe what God has done for you. You teach that you have a part - by believing - in being made spiritually alive to be on your way to heaven.
That's what you are, in fact, doing: presenting your belief to God so you can be In Christ and be on your way to heaven.
I have long told you that people are born spiritually alive, born In Christ. You refuse to believe. Instead, you teach that people are born spiritually dead in sin, and for them to become spiritually alive, people need to first believe to be in Christ and be on their way to heaven.
It will be for your own good if you stop accusing me of the crime you are the one guilty of.
Epoisses
New member
No Samie this is what the bible says: Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Belief is a requirement no matter how you slice or dice the equation. Whether it's a gift or a command it does not matter.
Epoisses
New member
Calvinism is for weak Christians who can't live by faith alone.
Paul knows that the jailer is already spiritually alive so he told him to believe in the Lord, just like what transpired with Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch.
It's a different scenario with you. You teach that people are born spiritually dead in sin, hence not able to believe, yet you require them to believe for them to become spiritually alive. You are teaching a paradox. You are asking the unconscious to go to the doctor to be revived.
Believing, which is overcoming the evil of unbelief, is possible only for the spiritually alive.