Calvinists' Dilemma

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Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Ask Mr. Religion said:
As he was our federal representative, all sinned in Adam, just as if we were really there with him in the garden. Accordingly, all are born sinners, hence we sin. From the teachings of Scripture, this has been the position of the church militant for over a thousand years.

See:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...med-Theology&p=4559007&viewfull=1#post4559007

In general, Arminians and Calvinists are not in agreement at all about the total inability of the lost:

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Arminian view of the lost:
Although human nature was seriously affected by the Fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does so in such a manner as not to interfere with man’s freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man’s freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God’s Spirit and be regenerated or resist God’s grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit’s assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe. Faith is the sinner’s gift to God; it is man’s contribution to salvation.

Reformed/Calvinist view of the lost:
Because of the Fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore he will not—indeed he cannot—choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit’s assistance to bring a sinner to Christ—it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive with a new heart. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God’s gift of salvation—it is God’s gift to the sinner, not the sinner’s gift to God.

AMR
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So, you want to believe that God does not love the world, John 3:16, but that he only loves "Some Certain Persons" of which you happen to be one of? Goody, goody for you.
 
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Samie

New member
Crucible said:
There is a difference between being cursed through ancestral sin, and being 'born a sinner'. A person is not actually born a sinner, for a very obvious reason- you have to first sin to be sinner.

Amazingly simple, but people have gotten carried away with calling it something else.

Total depravity is something due to the curse of Original Sin. This is something agreed upon by both Arminians and Calvinists- about the only thing they do agree on actually.
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Well, I wonder why AMR does not agree with you.

Crucible cannot find any verse from the Bible hinting that people are born spiritually dead in sin, hence he was forced to say that people are not actually born sinners. But AMR is very emphatic that people are born dead in sin, despite the absence of the verse. Disagreement among Calvinists naturally results because there is no clear Scriptural basis of what is being taught.

But I guess Scriptures are clear that people are born NOT dead in sin, as shown in the Biblical description of the incarnate Christ.
 
Crucible

Crucible

BANNED
Banned
Samie said:
Well, I wonder why AMR does not agree with you.

Crucible cannot find any verse from the Bible hinting that people are born spiritually dead in sin, hence he was forced to say that people are not actually born sinners. But AMR is very emphatic that people are born dead in sin, despite the absence of the verse. Disagreement among Calvinists naturally results because there is no clear Scriptural basis of what is being taught.

But I guess Scriptures are clear that people are born NOT dead in sin, as shown in the Biblical description of the incarnate Christ.
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The verse that you derive the 'born sinner' thing from doesn't even agree with you- the Bible says straight up that you are born INTO sin.

And
AMR is Presbyterian, I am Reformed Baptist- we are both Calvinists, but have our differences. Our differences are small- like this subject. It's not exactly apples and oranges.
 
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Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Crucible said:
The verse that you derive the 'born sinner' thing from doesn't even agree with you- the Bible says straight up that you are born INTO sin.

And
AMR is Presbyterian, I am Reformed Baptist- we are both Calvinists, but have our differences. Our differences are small- like this subject. It's not exactly apples and oranges.
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All are born into sin and need to be born again by the word of God, which is the Gospel, 1 Peter 1:23.
 
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Samie

New member
Crucible said:
The verse that you derive the 'born sinner' thing from doesn't even agree with you- the Bible says straight up that you are born INTO sin.
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Where in the Bible does it say people are born dead in sin? In an earlier post you say people are not actually born sinners; now you are saying people are born into sin.

Crucible said:
And
AMR is Presbyterian, I am Reformed Baptist- we are both Calvinists, but have our differences. Our differences are small- like this subject. It's not exactly apples and oranges.
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Is that small when you are on the other end of the issue while AMR is on the opposite end? You say people are NOT born sinners, AMR says people are born sinners.
 
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Samie

New member
Robert Pate said:
All are born into sin and need to be born again by the word of God, which is the Gospel, 1 Peter 1:23.
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If "born dead in sin" is your "born into sin", where in the Bible does it say all are born into sin? I want to know where's that verse. Thank you in advance.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
So, you want to believe that God does not love the world, John 3:16, but that he only loves "Some Certain Persons" of which you happen to be one of? Goody, goody for you.
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The world does mean certain particular persons apart from the rest.
 
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Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Samie said:
If "born dead in sin" is your "born into sin", where in the Bible does it say all are born into sin? I want to know where's that verse. Thank you in advance.
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King David wrote..."In sin did my mother conceive me" Psalm 51:5.
 
Epoisses

Epoisses

New member
beloved57 said:
No where does it say that ! The word world is used generally to mean only part of humanity, so you have lied !
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In Romans 5 Adam's sin is passed on to all men or the many or the world. Are there any men or women who are not under the condemnation of death?
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Epoisses said:
In Romans 5 Adam's sin is passed on to all men or the many or the world. Are there any men or women who are not under the condemnation of death?
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It only means part ! Yes there are men and women who are not under condemnation and wrath even while enemies Rom 5:10, they are reconciled to God instead by Christs death for them. I have preaching this for years now !
 
Epoisses

Epoisses

New member
beloved57 said:
It only means part ! Yes there are men and women who are not under condemnation and wrath even while enemies Rom 5:10, they are reconciled to God instead by Christs death for them. I have preaching this for years now !
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All men and women are born condemned because of Adam's sin. Adam actually means mankind because all men proceeded from him.
 
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