Believing: Is it done BEFORE or AFTER one is in Christ?

[glorydaz]

Yes, all descendants of Adam & Eve.

Well, it's true He created all things and by Him all things consist....

Col. 1:16-17 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.​

BUT..... You must undergo the operation of God before you will be IN HIM. First you believe and trust (begotten by the GOSPEL), then you are quickened and all your trespasses are forgiven.

Colossians 2:11-13
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;​

 

[glorydaz]

NO.

The cross is the revelation or manifestation of what God did through Christ - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world - in His act of saving Adam that same day he fell into sin. see 2 Tim 1:8-10.

Why are you trying to make 2Tim. say what it doesn't? I see your premise, but there is no support.

 

[Samie]

BUT..... You must undergo the operation of God before you will be IN HIM. First you believe and trust (begotten by the GOSPEL), then you are quickened and all your trespasses are forgiven.

Colossians 2:11-13
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;​

No one CANNOT, is NOT ABLE to, do ANY spiritual act, like believing and trusting, unless He is FIRST in Christ Who said APART from Me you can do NOTHING. No descendant of Adam can ESCAPE this reality. We are first In Christ PRIOR to our believing.

Reversing the order will redound to salvation by works.

 

[Samie]

Why are you trying to make 2Tim. say what it doesn't? I see your premise, but there is no support.

2 Timothy 1:8-10 8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel

Adam was saved through Christ. There's just no other way (Acts 4:12). And that was done the same day Adam fell into sin. Even a good earthly father upon seeing his child fall into the water will do all in his power to save his child from drowning even at the peril of his own life.

So with our heavenly Father, the God of love (agape).

He did not wait for 2000 years after the accident before sending the doctor to attend to the emergency. He sent down the ambulance with the doctor of heaven when the emergency occurred in Eden. For the salvation of man, the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. This was what the cross of Calvary revealed.

 

[glorydaz]

No one CANNOT, is NOT ABLE to, do ANY spiritual act, like believing and trusting, unless He is FIRST in Christ Who said APART from Me you can do NOTHING. No descendant of Adam can ESCAPE this reality. We are first In Christ PRIOR to our believing.

Reversing the order will redound to salvation by works.

Your understanding of John 15 is wrong. Until you figure that out, you'll continue to make the same mistake.

 

[Samie]

Your understanding of John 15 is wrong. Until you figure that out, you'll continue to make the same mistake.

Wrong for you because it does not jibe with what you LEARNED, lady. Were you taught that when Jesus said NOTHING, He really meant SOMETHING?

 

[Samie]

Why is it NOT possible for a person to believe IF he is not in Christ?

Believing is exercising faith, hence without faith one cannot believe. Faith is fruit of the Spirit, and only those in Christ can bear fruit. Hence, one need to be in Christ first and foremost so he can bear the fruit called faith he can then use to believe.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

You can't win the argument with Jerry so you have to take ugly jabs at his discussions with his son. You need to stop doing that....it's not right, and I'm pretty sure it's against the rules. Your lib tactics show the smallness of your person. Stop it!

You're right Glorydaz.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I agree.
And yes it is against TOL rules to bring up family members as an insult.
It was a low blow and should be avoided in the future.

Yep

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Why is it NOT possible for a person to believe IF he is not in Christ?

Believing is exercising faith, hence without faith one cannot believe. Faith is fruit of the Spirit, and only those in Christ can bear fruit. Hence, one need to be in Christ first and foremost so he can bear the fruit called faith he can then use to believe.

You're extremely confused.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

No one CANNOT, is NOT ABLE to, do ANY spiritual act, like believing and trusting, unless He is FIRST in Christ Who said APART from Me you can do NOTHING. No descendant of Adam can ESCAPE this reality. We are first In Christ PRIOR to our believing.

Reversing the order will redound to salvation by works.

In order to receive eternal life one MUST first, hear the Grace Gospel, place all their faith in Christ as their Savior, be sealed, indwelt by the Holy Spirit and baptized (not by water) into The Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit. We are all born with a free will to choose what to believe in. The Holy Spirit draws ALL of humanity to Christ through the Gospel.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

2 Timothy 1:8-10 8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel

Are you saying that the LORD "saved us" even though we had not yet believed?

From the following verse we can see that according to the LORD's foreknowledge He saved men in this way:

"But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

Are you willing to argue that a person is saved before they believe?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Believing is exercising faith, hence without faith one cannot believe. Faith is fruit of the Spirit, and only those in Christ can bear fruit. Hence, one need to be in Christ first and foremost so he can bear the fruit called faith he can then use to believe.

Yes, faith is the fruit of the Spirit. It is the gospel which comes in power and in the Holy Spirit (1 Thess.1:5) which results in "faith" for all those who believe.

According to your idea the gospel, which comes in power and in the Holy Spirit, is impotent to save anyone unless they are first "in Christ." What lowly ideas you have about the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Samie]

Yes, faith is the fruit of the Spirit. It is the gospel which comes in power and in the Holy Spirit (1 Thess.1:5) which results in "faith" for all those who believe.

So according to you, one must believe so he can have faith.

But to believe is to exercise faith. Hence you are saying that even without faith, man can believe - a biblical impossibility.

Do you know that without faith it is impossible to please God, according to Scriptures?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

People are BEING justified. When one commits sin, the sin committed having been forgiven on the cross is NOT imputed against him (2 Cor 5:18, 19).

No one is justified in the eyes of God until they believe:

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God" (Ro. 5: 1-2).​

But the act of sinning reminds him that he is not an overcomer yet. He must overcome evil with good. This is where repentance comes in. As per our Lord, repent or perish. And only overcomers will Christ not blot out from the book of life.

Here we read exactly what it takes to be an overcomer:

"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:4-5).​

 

[Samie]

No one is justified in the eyes of God until they believe

You are fond of biblical impossibilities.

You said that to have faith one must believe and unless one believes, he cannot be justified.

So how can God justify you when you cannot believe because you don't have faith you can use to believe?

 

[Samie]

In order to receive eternal life one MUST first, hear the Grace Gospel, place all their faith in Christ as their Savior, be sealed, indwelt by the Holy Spirit and baptized (not by water) into The Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit. We are all born with a free will to choose what to believe in. The Holy Spirit draws ALL of humanity to Christ through the Gospel.

What faith will you place in Christ when you don't have faith to place in Him?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So according to you, one must believe so he can have faith.

Let us look at how "faith" is defined in the Bible:

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Heb.11:1).​

No one can have this evidence until they first believe that the evidence is true. So in order to have this evidence a person must believe and that is how a person receives faith. Besides, Paul tells us exactly how a person gets faith:

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Ro.10:17).​

No one can have faith until they first hear and believe the word of God and upon believing they have the evidence of things not seen.

 

[Samie]

Are you willing to argue that a person is saved before they believe?

Yes.

People are born already in Christ, and to be in Christ is to be saved, hence people are born already saved. And being in Christ, they can bear fruit. And if they can bear fruit, they can have faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit. And if they have faith, they can believe.

If people gets saved only AFTER they believe, then they can NEVER be saved.

If one is NOT yet saved, he is not yet in Christ. If he is not yet in Christ, he cannot bear fruit. If he cannot bear fruit, then he has yet no faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit. If he has no faith, then he cannot believe. And if he cannot believe, he cannot be saved according to your doctrine.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

What faith will you place in Christ when you don't have faith to place in Him?

I received the "evidence" that Christ died for my sins when I believed the gospel which comes in power and in the Holy Spirit.

You see, the gospel and the Holy Spirit work in unison to bring life to those who are dead in sin, as witnessed by what the Lord Jesus said here:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

In the following verse we see exactly how a person receives this life:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​