Believing: Is it done BEFORE or AFTER one is in Christ?

[Jerry Shugart]

Samie, I asked you the following question:

Are you willing to argue that a person is saved before they believe?​

Here is your answer:

Yes.

Then Paul and those who were with Him were wrong when they answered this way:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

It is impossible to show you the truth because you think that you know more about salvation than did Paul.

Pitiful!

 

[Samie]

Jerry, let's dwell on the issue of this thread.

You asked me if I want to argue whether a person can be saved prior to believing. I answered Yes.

People are born already in Christ, and to be in Christ is to be saved, hence people are born already saved. And being in Christ, they can bear fruit. And if they can bear fruit, they can have faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit. And if they have faith, they can believe.

Pretty clear that people are saved PRIOR to believing.

If people gets saved only AFTER they believe, just like what you teach, then they can NEVER be saved.

If one is NOT yet saved, he is not yet in Christ. If he is not yet in Christ, he cannot bear fruit. If he cannot bear fruit, then he has yet no faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit. If he has no faith, then he cannot believe. And if he cannot believe, he cannot be saved according to your doctrine.

Your turn. Please dwell on the issue.

 

[Samie]

Then Paul and those who were with Him were wrong when they answered this way:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

It is impossible to show you the truth because you think that you know more about salvation than did Paul.

Pitiful!

Jerry;

Paul was correct that people will be saved if they believe.

will be saved is FUTURE tense, NOT Past Tense. People are born already saved, this is PAST tense. And for people to benefit from the FUTURE Tense will be saved , they have to overcome the evil of UNBELIEF by overcoming it. People overcome the evil of UNBELIEF when they BELIEVE. They can believe because they have faith, being in Christ.

If they refuse to believe, then they are not overcomers. Christ will blot their names from the book of life.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You asked me if I want to argue whether a person can be saved prior to believing. I answered Yes.

Then Paul was wrong when he wrote this:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).​

According to your strange ideas the gospel of Christ saves no one because people are saved before they believe.

I have never seen anyone who has such a severe case of unbelief as you! There is only one way to cure that disease and that is to begin the believe the Scriptures.

 

[Samie]

Then Paul was wrong when he wrote this:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).​

According to your strange ideas the gospel of Christ saves no one because people are saved before they believe.

I have never seen anyone who has such a severe case of unbelief as you! There is only one way to cure that disease and that is to begin the believe the Scriptures.

Jerry;

Paul was correct that people will be saved if they believe.

will be saved is FUTURE tense, NOT Past Tense. People are born already saved, this is PAST tense. And for people to benefit from the FUTURE Tense will be saved , they have to overcome the evil of UNBELIEF by overcoming it. People overcome the evil of UNBELIEF when they BELIEVE. They can believe because they have faith, being in Christ.

If they refuse to believe, then they are not overcomers. Christ will blot their names from the book of life.

 

[Samie]

Jerry;

I am reposting a post relative to your belief that people starts life NOT yet saved and can only be saved AFTER they believe.

If people gets saved only AFTER they believe, just like what you teach, then they can NEVER be saved.

If one is NOT yet saved, he is not yet in Christ. If he is not yet in Christ, he cannot bear fruit. If he cannot bear fruit, then he has yet no faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit. If he has no faith, then he cannot believe. And if he cannot believe, he cannot be saved according to your doctrine.

 

[Samie]

It is past midnight from where I am. Good night, folks.

 

[glorydaz]

Wrong for you because it does not jibe with what you LEARNED, lady. Were you taught that when Jesus said NOTHING, He really meant SOMETHING?

When Jesus said that in John 15, he had not yet gone to the Cross and the Holy Spirit had not yet come to dwell in the believer. As I said, the CROSS actually accomplished something and you don't seem to know what that is.

 

[glorydaz]

Why is it NOT possible for a person to believe IF he is not in Christ?

Believing is exercising faith, hence without faith one cannot believe. Faith is fruit of the Spirit, and only those in Christ can bear fruit. Hence, one need to be in Christ first and foremost so he can bear the fruit called faith he can then use to believe.

Except you're confusing saving faith and faith that is the fruit of the Spirit. It cannot be the same because the first is a LAW and the second is a result of salvation....a result of having the Spirit dwell in you....fruit of the Spirit. Justified by faith really does mean something.

Romans 3:26-28 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.​

 

[glorydaz]

Samie, I asked you the following question:

Are you willing to argue that a person is saved before they believe?​

Here is your answer:



Then Paul and those who were with Him were wrong when they answered this way:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

It is impossible to show you the truth because you think that you know more about salvation than did Paul.

Pitiful!

I noticed Samie chose to ignore this text. "What must I do to be saved?" BELIEVE AND THOU SHALT BE SAVED, Samie.

Here's another one for you. You must believe in your HEART...not just your head. You can't decide to believe. You must be persuaded by the Word of God. That is the POWER of the Gospel. :chew:

The Gospel is the Power of God unto Salvation. Romans 1:16

According to Samie's theory, the Gospel is nothing.

 

[glorydaz]

Then Paul was wrong when he wrote this:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).​

According to your strange ideas the gospel of Christ saves no one because people are saved before they believe.

I have never seen anyone who has such a severe case of unbelief as you! There is only one way to cure that disease and that is to begin the believe the Scriptures.

Gosh, Jerry. I see you already hit him with the Gospel. :thumb:

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

You are fond of biblical impossibilities.

You said that to have faith one must believe and unless one believes, he cannot be justified.

So how can God justify you when you cannot believe because you don't have faith you can use to believe?

You have absolutely NO Spiritual discernment.

 

[God's Truth]

Jerry, let's dwell on the issue of this thread.

You asked me if I want to argue whether a person can be saved prior to believing. I answered Yes.

People are born already in Christ, and to be in Christ is to be saved, hence people are born already saved. And being in Christ, they can bear fruit. And if they can bear fruit, they can have faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit. And if they have faith, they can believe.

Pretty clear that people are saved PRIOR to believing.

If people gets saved only AFTER they believe, just like what you teach, then they can NEVER be saved.

If one is NOT yet saved, he is not yet in Christ. If he is not yet in Christ, he cannot bear fruit. If he cannot bear fruit, then he has yet no faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit. If he has no faith, then he cannot believe. And if he cannot believe, he cannot be saved according to your doctrine.

Your turn. Please dwell on the issue.

You have to believe and obey God before you can be saved and put in Christ.

Jesus came first for those who already belonged to God by belief and obedience.

They were God the Father's and now they had to go through Jesus to remain God's.

God gave to Christ those who belonged to Him.

Jesus said he would not lose one who belonged to God and given to him.

John 17:6 "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

What faith will you place in Christ when you don't have faith to place in Him?

The Bible disagrees with you. Read and study the writings of Paul, Romans through Philemon. Pray to God for guidance before you open your Bible.

 

[God's Truth]

When Jesus was crucified, then all could be grafted in after they believe and obey him.

However, he came first for those who were already God the Father's.

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

 

[Samie]

I noticed Samie chose to ignore this text. "What must I do to be saved?" BELIEVE AND THOU SHALT BE SAVED, Samie.

Already answered before you asked. Refute it.

Here's another one for you. You must believe in your HEART...not just your head. You can't decide to believe. You must be persuaded by the Word of God. That is the POWER of the Gospel. :chew:

The Gospel is the Power of God unto Salvation. Romans 1:16

According to Samie's theory, the Gospel is nothing.

Oh, really? You seem to know the gospel thoroughly.

Can you tell me what Jesus said when He preached the gospel, the same gospel He wanted preached to the world before He returns? Are you preaching the same gospel that Jesus preached?

 

[Samie]

When Jesus said that in John 15, he had not yet gone to the Cross and the Holy Spirit had not yet come to dwell in the believer. As I said, the CROSS actually accomplished something and you don't seem to know what that is.

Let me guess...think, think, think. Ah... The cross made people able to do SOMETHING instead of NOTHING even while they are NOT in Christ. Am I correct, gloriously dazzling one?

 

[Samie]

Except you're confusing saving faith and faith that is the fruit of the Spirit. It cannot be the same because the first is a LAW and the second is a result of salvation....a result of having the Spirit dwell in you....fruit of the Spirit. Justified by faith really does mean something.

Romans 3:26-28 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.​

Oh, oh... So, two kinds. One, saving faith, which is a law; the other one, fruit of the Spirit. And you used Rom 3:27's "law of faith" to conclude that when the bible says "law of faith" then "faith is a law" and you called it saving faith.

Wrong conclusion, I guess. Notice:

1. From "law of faith" to "faith is law".

2. Hence, from "law of God" to "God is law".

If no. 1 is correct, then no. 2 is also correct. But no. 2 is obviously wrong, THEREFORE, No. 1 is wrong.

 

[Samie]

deleted duplicate post.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Oh, oh... So, two kinds. One, saving faith, which is a law; the other one, fruit of the Spirit. And you used Rom 3:27's "law of faith" to conclude that when the bible says "law of faith" then "faith is a law" and you called it saving faith.

Wrong conclusion, I guess. Notice:

1. From "law of faith" to "faith is law".

2. Hence, from "law of God" to "God is law".

If no. 1 is correct, then no. 2 is also correct. But no. 2 is obviously wrong, THEREFORE, No. 1 is wrong.

Samie seems to always be wrong? Why is Samie always wrong? I wonder?