Believing: Is it done BEFORE or AFTER one is in Christ?

musterion

musterion

Well-known member
Samie said:
Hence, only those already in Christ can believe.
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If that were true, God would have no business condemning the unbelief of those who don't believe because that condemnation would make Him a liar.

If they disbelieve, it can't be because they chose to. According to you, without Him they can do nothing -- including believe.

That means, according to you, they disbelieve only because He didn't want them to believe. That's the only option open to you to explain anyone's unbelief.

Which would make God a liar for blaming them for choosing to disbelieve, which makes your concept of "God" a false one because God cannot lie.

But you're just another Calvinist simpleton who will ignore this point.
 
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Samie

New member
musterion said:
If that were true, God would have no business condemning the unbelief of those who don't believe because that condemnation would make Him a liar.

If they disbelieve, it can't be because they chose to. According to you, without Him they can do nothing -- including believe.

That means, according to you, they disbelieve only because He didn't want them to believe. That's the only option open to you to explain anyone's unbelief.
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No. Your logic is sour.

People are born already in Christ, hence born with the capability to believe or to disbelieve. It is their choice whether to believe or not. If they choose NOT to believe, is God to blame? No.

Just like Adam. He was created with the capability to choose. He chose to sin. Do you blame God because Adam sinned? With your sour logic, you will.
 
musterion

musterion

Well-known member
Samie said:
No. Your logic is sour.
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No it isn't. The logic is perfectly sound. That's why you ignored the point, as I predicted.

Your position:

Man can do NOTHING without God's enabling.

That means man cannot believe without God's enabling him to believe.

That means, if a man believes then God essentially saved him before he believed.

That means those who NEVER believe were never enabled to believe.

That means God didn't intend to save them.

[all that is 100% consistent Calvinism, right in line with TULIP]

Here's your problem:

The above means that whenever God condemns someone for unbelief, according to your position God HAS to be lying because they didn't CHOOSE unbelief any more than the saved CHOSE belief. Their unbelief results only from God's refusal to GIVE them belief.

That makes Him a liar for damning them not just for sin generally, BUT SPECIFICALLY FOR UNBELIEF.

Conclusion: your concept of God is a blasphemous idol that lies, and you're on your way to the Lake of Fire for preaching a false gospel that all are already born in Christ when the Bible says they're not.
 
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Samie

New member
musterion said:
No it isn't. The logic is perfectly sound. That's why you ignored the point, as I predicted.

Your position:

Man can do NOTHING without God's enabling.

That means man cannot believe without God's enabling him to believe.

That means, if a man believes then God essentially saved him before he believed.

That means those who NEVER believe were never enabled to believe.

That means God didn't intend to save them.

[all that is 100% consistent Calvinism, right in line with TULIP]

Here's your problem:

The above means that whenever God condemns someone for unbelief, according to your position God HAS to be lying because they didn't CHOOSE unbelief any more than the saved CHOSE belief. Their unbelief results only from God's refusal to GIVE them belief.

That makes Him a liar for damning them not just for sin generally, BUT SPECIFICALLY FOR UNBELIEF.

Conclusion: your concept of God is a blasphemous idol that lies, and you're on your way to the Lake of Fire for preaching a false gospel that all are already born in Christ when the Bible says they're not.
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Wrong again.

Again:

Your logic is sour.

People are born already in Christ, hence born with the capability to believe or to disbelieve. It is their choice whether to believe or not. If they choose NOT to believe, is God to blame? No.

Just like Adam. He was created with the capability to choose. He chose to sin. Will you blame God because Adam sinned? With your sour logic, you will.
 
musterion

musterion

Well-known member
Samie said:
Thank you.

Easily giving up? Try harder, brother.
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I'm not your brother. No one is naturally "born in Christ." Paul never taught that. Those who are in Him become so ONLY upon believing the gospel of the grace of God. Without that, none are in Christ and none are saved.
 
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Samie

New member
musterion said:
I'm not your brother. No one is naturally "born in Christ." Paul never taught that. Those who are in Him become so ONLY upon believing the gospel of the grace of God. Without that, none are in Christ and none are saved.
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No.

Again, one cannot believe UNLESS he is in Christ Who said man can do NOTHING when NOT in Him.

People are born In Christ, because God implemented the plan of salvation He devised before the foundation of the world by saving Adam through Christ that same day he fell into sin, an act that cost the Father His only begotten Son - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world!. With Adam in Christ, all his descendants are born in Christ.

That gracious, saving act of God was manifested in the life, death, resurrection and heavenly ministry of our Savior and Lord. see 2 Tim 1:8-10.
 
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Samie

New member
musterion said:
Those who are in Him become so ONLY upon believing the gospel of the grace of God. Without that, none are in Christ and none are saved.
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You are teaching a works-based salvation. Unscriptural.

Our being in Christ is SOLELY God's work FOR man. We have ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with our being in Christ. If a man is not in Christ, then he is spiritually dead because Christ is our Life (Col 3:4). And the spiritually dead cannot do any spiritual act like believing.
 
musterion

musterion

Well-known member
Samie said:
You are teaching a works-based salvation. Unscriptural.
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"Belief is a work." Typical Calvinistic twaddle.

Our being in Christ is SOLELY God's work FOR man. We have ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with our being in Christ. If a man is not in Christ, then he is spiritually dead because Christ is our Life (Col 3:4). And the spiritually dead cannot do any spiritual act like believing.
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If all are "born in Christ," there'd be no need for faith, for the Gospel, nothing. It'd all be taken care of, and nothing for God to condemn.
 
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Samie

New member
musterion said:
If all are "born in Christ," why did He warn those who heard Him that they must be born again?
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Of course. Unless there is second birth, we have no hope; we remain in our sins.

We are physically born already in Christ, that's our first birth. We need to be born again. AGAIN because it is for the second time. How are people born again, according to Scriptures?

NAS 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

KJV 1 Corinthians 15:13-17 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
 
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Samie

New member
musterion said:
"Belief is a work." Typical Calvinistic twaddle.
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Not just "belief". It is "believing" that is work. Believing is exercise of faith, which is fruit of the Spirit, and only those in Christ can bear fruit. Hence, being in Christ ALWAYS comes first before one can have faith people use to believe.

musterion said:
If all are "born in Christ," there'd be no need for faith, for the Gospel, nothing. It'd all be taken care of, and nothing for God to condemn.
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No. Faith is needed, for without faith people cannot believe and they could not please God (Heb 11:6). That's why God apportioned to all the faith of His Son. see Rom 12:3.

And repentance is needed, because God now commands all people every where to repent (Acts 17:30).

Repentance is change of mind for that which is good. Instead of doing evil, do good. IOW, overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21). Overcomers will Christ NOT blot out from the book of life and will be seated with Him in His throne as He also overcame and sat down with the Father in His throne (Rev 3:5, 21).
 
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