And I thought you're not confused.
Believing: Is it done BEFORE or AFTER one is in Christ?
- Thread starter Samie
- Start date
Perhaps, GM didn't realize it was so important to Samie? Samie doesn't appear to have much knowledge in certain areas of discussion? GM ponders this and wonders, why?
Perhaps, Samie was just thinking positively? You know, "Hope springs eternal" and all of that good stuff.
You also have a loose screw in your head you also speak in the third person, brother?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Then tell me exactly what I said that is in error. Here is what I said again:
First we see that salvation is "in Christ Jesus":
"Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory" (2 Tim.2:10).
We also know that in order to be saved a person must believe in the Lord Jesus, as witnessed by the answer given by Paul and those with him here:
"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).
Therefore, we can understand that no one is "in Christ" until they believe.
"Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory" (2 Tim.2:10).
We also know that in order to be saved a person must believe in the Lord Jesus, as witnessed by the answer given by Paul and those with him here:
"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).
Therefore, we can understand that no one is "in Christ" until they believe.
Again, if you are right then you should be able to tell me exactly what I said there is in error. I will wait for your answer.
Thanks!
So why can't you defeat his reasoning? Do you know even less than what he knows?
I have already ENUMERATED the errors here in this post even before you posted what you have reposted. I will wait for you to refute them.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Nothing whichh you said there proves anything which I said is in error.
Do you deny that "salvation" is found "in Christ Jesus":
"Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory" (2 Tim.2:10).
Do you deny that Paul teaches that in order to be saved a person must "believe":
"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).
If you an cannot deny either of those two things then you should realize that no one can possibly be "in Christ" until they believe.
So once again, do you deny either of those things?
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Correct.
God elected all of Adam's descendants with no one exempted nor left out, but only overcomers - those who repented of their evil deeds - will Christ NOT blot out from the book of life and will be seated with Him in His throne even as He also overcame and sat down with the Father in His throne (Rev 3:5, 21).
All NOT blotted out will be allowed entry to heaven (Rev 21:27); all blotted out will have their portion in the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Why do you refuse to answer these simple questions which I asked, Samie:
Do you deny that "salvation" is found "in Christ Jesus":
Do you deny that Paul teaches that in order to be saved a person must "believe":
If you an cannot deny either of those two things then you should realize that no one can possibly be "in Christ" until they believe.
So once again, do you deny either of those things?
"Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory" (2 Tim.2:10).
Do you deny that Paul teaches that in order to be saved a person must "believe":
"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).
If you an cannot deny either of those two things then you should realize that no one can possibly be "in Christ" until they believe.
So once again, do you deny either of those things?
Did you not understand my previous post to you where I EMPHATICALLY told you that Yes, Jesus is the only way to salvation, and Yes, to be saved you must believe in Him? Do you still NOT understand that that means I do not deny any of what you are asking me?
You are simply repeating questions already answered because you do not read and understand what others are posting and are only concerned with what you are asking. Which explains to me why you cannot even convince your own son.
You are a waste of time. Sorry, to say this.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The problem with your idea is the mistaken idea that a person can be "in Christ" but not yet saved:
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).
Once a person is "in Him" or "in Christ" he is saved:
"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began" (2 Tim.1:9).
"Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory" (2 Tim.2:10).
So we can see that being chosen before the foundation of the world is in regard to salvation since the elect are chosen "in Him." In other words, no one can be chosen "in Him" unless salvation is already secured.
This verse tells us the reason why "from the beginning" the LORD chose us for salvation:
"But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).
Where did I say in any of my post that a person in Christ is not yet saved?
Your problem, Jerry, is that you do not make some effort to better understand what others are saying. And you are fond of changing tenses when it comes to salvation. From "will be saved" which is future tense, to "not yet saved" which is past tense, and vice versa.
Again, people are born in Christ, hence they begin life already in Christ, and therefore already saved, being in Christ. But they will still grow up to the age of accountability, and will commit sin. They will have to repent or perish. When the Father send them missionaries to tell them about His Son, like what He did when He sent Philip to the eunuch, and they refuse to believe, then God will hold them accountable. If they don't repent and believe, then their names will be blotted out from the book of life.
Do you now understand my position?
Now tell me, what is not biblical about my position and I will gladly discuss with you.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Samie, that is not what I asked you. I did not ask you if Jesus is the only way to salvation. Instead I asked you this:
Do you deny that "salvation" is found "in Christ Jesus":
"Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory" (2 Tim.2:10).
This is speaking about the salvation "which is in Christ Jesus." The Greek word translated "in" means "in the interior of some whole" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).
So we can understand that "salvation" is found "in Christ." No one can be "in Christ" unless they are saved.
Besides that, the words "in Christ" are referring to being in the Body of Christ:
"For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another" (Ro.12:4-5).
No one is baptized into the Body of Christ until they believe and are saved.
Or perhaps you are willing to argue that there are people in the Body of Christ who are not saved?
beloved57
Well-known member
Those in Christ before the foundation are saved from the penalty of sin before the world began !They only need to be saved from the power of sin after they are born sinners.They will be saved from unbelief 2 Thess 2:13
beloved57
Well-known member
jerry
Yes, Christ is the Saviour of His Body Eph 5:23
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
They have always been saved from the penalty of sin, but they are born not saved from the power of sin !
Yes, Christ is the Saviour of His Body Eph 5:23
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
They have always been saved from the penalty of sin, but they are born not saved from the power of sin !
Jerry, again, I understand why you cannot even convince your own son. You don't understand what others tell you but instead insists on what you think others mean.
Yes, salvation is found ONLY in Christ because Jesus is the ONLY way to salvation. Yes, all in Christ are saved. They all were ALREADY saved. They were all born in Christ, hence born ALREADY saved.
Being born already in Christ, they are part of His Body, and they have His power to do SOMETHING instead of NOTHING. They can believe.
But if one refuses to believe, then he is overcome of the evil of unbelief. He must repent by overcoming that evil, and believe instead. Otherwise Christ will blot his name from the book of life.
Hence believing is done AFTER one is in Christ.