ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!

[Nathon Detroit]

Re: Surreptitious answer to prayer ...

Re: Surreptitious answer to prayer ...

Originally posted by Hilston
Of course. I'm not talking about every mundane instance, just the heinous ones where evil men take the lives of innocent others. Why doesn't God just stop those? He could do it, right? Why doesn't He, especially the murders of unsaved people who will now have no chance at salvation?

Why stop at only the heinous events? If your argument holds God should be protecting us from hurting each other all the time!

You continue....

That's why I suggested surreptitious action. Something undetectable by humans. Surely God is creative enough to come up with ways to save children from being brutally raped, tortured and murdered without making it an obvious miraculous intervention. Like this: Say the homicidal pedophile has done this before, and now God has learned what this guy is capable of. So let's say a mother has prayed that God would protect her child (so we have the prayer request made). Now the the man sets his sights to abduct that woman's child. In answer to prayer, God relaxes His hold on the atomic structure of gastrointenstinal organs of the pedophile, causing severe abdominal pain, requiring him to find a restroom. The child is safe, the pedophile is sufficiently distracted. That just one quick example. This would be so easy for God to do, and no one would be the wiser.

Uhm.... Jim.... your story begs the question.... why didn't God prevent the first homicidal rape? Why only stop the second one?

On the Open View, wouldn't you expect God to be a healthy and compassionate God and do whatever He could to (secretly) stop this, and not a sick voyeuristic God who would idly stand by while such an evil act occurred?

LOL.... ah you mean you would rather have the God that is BEHIND all of the evil in the world right??? :chuckle:

You complain about voyeurism but preach evil mastermind!

Not that is rich indeed.

 

[Hilston]

Healthy God ...

Healthy God ...

Knight,

You write:

Why stop at only the heinous events? If your argument holds God should be protecting us from hurting each other all the time!

Just those events that would most benefit God's desire to save as many people as possible. A heinous evil murder of an innocent person prevents the salvation of that person forever. The stubbing of a toe does not.

Uhm.... Jim.... your story begs the question.... why didn't God prevent the first homicidal rape? Why only stop the second one?

I'm starting from the Open View. On the Open View, God might not have seen it coming. I'm cutting God some slack, Knight. That's not "question-begging." Do you agree that it would be an easy thing for God to do, and that He could do it without anyone knowing that He was behind it?

Jim wrote: On the Open View, wouldn't you expect God to be a healthy and compassionate God and do whatever He could to (secretly) stop this, and not a sick voyeuristic God who would idly stand by while such an evil act occurred?

LOL.... ah you mean you would rather have the God that is BEHIND all of the evil in the world right???

No, I'm talking about the Open View, Knight. Wouldn't you, as an Open Theist, expect God to be a healthy and compassionate God and do whatever He could to (secretly) stop this?

 

[Yorzhik]

Hilston writes:

No, I'm talking about the Open View, Knight. Wouldn't you, as an Open Theist, expect God to be a healthy and compassionate God and do whatever He could to (secretly) stop this?

No. I would expect God to be consistant with His character and leave the atoms the way He said He would, and let people have free will in the way He said He would.

 

[Hilston]

Freewill and atoms unaltered ...

Freewill and atoms unaltered ...

Yorzhik,

Didn't I already concede that God would leave free will alone? Let's further assume He doesn't alter the atoms (He can't "leave them alone" -- He holds them together!). Couldn't God come up with myriad creative ways to prevent evil people from murdering innocent people who might someday get saved?

Wouldn't a healthy God do something to stop the premature deaths of people who might otherwise have become believers?

Jim

 

[Lighthouse]

Clete-
Hell is not reserved for those who reject Christ. Hell was made for Satan, and all the angels that followed him, in their rejection of God. Yes, people go there too, but it was not made for them. It is not reserved for them, but they go ther if they reject Christ's death [and therefore accept their own].

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

I really cannot understand how you and other Calvinist are totally unable to see the totally inconsistent nature of your own belief system. It's truly as if there is something blinding you guys. Calvinism is so hopelessly self contradictory that it should be the easiest thing in the world to debunk and it is, but it as if there is this wall, or some sort of barrier that prevents many from seeing it. I really don't get it! It's not as if you guys are stupid, you're obviously not!

To me, the Calvinistic view of God is of one who is more glorified than in your view. I've experienced both sides of the fence; the grass is much greener over here...

So why is it that you can see that 2+2=7 is not correct but you can't understand that if Knight was hypocritical because there was no other option other than to be hypocritical then to say that he had a choice in the matter is self contradictory! Even if you say he wanted to be hypocritical then that is meaningless because the very fact that he wanted to is itself a predestined unalterable fact, right? It's not as if you guys can say that Knight's personal history has led him down a path that resulted in the evil desire within him that caused him to consciously decide to be hypocritical because you only compound your own logical problem. Everything that Knight has ever thought, or done, or said, or felt, or experienced in any way was not due to his own action but due to God's predestined will being performed. In a Calvinist worldview Knight is a puppet on strings as are we all and to insist that one repent in order to be within God's will is self contradictory and in fact could only be done if God Himself pulled the repent string in His cosmic puppet show. Knight would have no more culpability for his actions than Pinocchio would.

So what if God predestines? Why is that such a "stumbling block" to you? Why can't you just understand the simple fact that man has reponsibility and God is absolutely sovereign? The Bible teaches both, yet you find that hard to believe. To you, it's gotta be one or the other.

 

[Z Man]

Knight,

Originally posted by Z Man

Did God give Job his afflictions? Did God give Egypt thier plagues? Did God afflict the Israelites with much turmoil in the desert after fleeing from Egypt? Did God blind Zach, the father of John? Did God blind Paul? Did God cripple all those people that Jesus had to heal? Does God not do these things to be glorified?

Also, your horrible Bible interpreting skills were caught red-handed by boogerhead in posts #52 and #58. I find it amusing how you run away from your 'problems'...

 

[Hilston]

Ay ay, nudge nudge ...

Ay ay, nudge nudge ...

Z Man, I'm still waiting to see if Clete is going to answer my questions. If you see him, please give him a nudge.

 

[Z Man]

Re: Ay ay, nudge nudge ...

Re: Ay ay, nudge nudge ...

Originally posted by Hilston

Z Man, I'm still waiting to see if Clete is going to answer my questions. If you see him, please give him a nudge.

Roger doger. :thumb:

Hey, did you add me to your yahoo instant messenger?

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Z Man

To me, the Calvinistic view of God is of one who is more glorified than in your view. I've experienced both sides of the fence; the grass is much greener over here...

So what if God predestines? Why is that such a "stumbling block" to you? Why can't you just understand the simple fact that man has reponsibility and God is absolutely sovereign? The Bible teaches both, yet you find that hard to believe. To you, it's gotta be one or the other.

let's suppose i have a friend named bob. bob has a son named joe. now one day, bob sees something he wants in a store but can't afford. so he takes joe to the store, grabs both his hands and forces him (joe) to grab the item he (bob) wants and put it in his (joe's) pocket. now please tell me, who is responsible for the theft? joe, or bob?

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

let's suppose i have a friend named bob. bob has a son named joe. now one day, bob sees something he wants in a store but can't afford. so he takes joe to the store, grabs both his hands and forces him (joe) to grab the item he (bob) wants and put it in his (joe's) pocket. now please tell me, who is responsible for the theft? joe, or bob?

Ummmm......both?

How's that story have anything to do with this discussion? Do you believe God is sovereign, or that man is sovereign? Can you understand that the Bible tells us that there is a mystery concerning man's responsibility, yet God is absolutely sovereign at the same time?

 

[Hilston]

Bob-God

Bob-God

God_is_truth writes:

let's suppose i have a friend named bob. bob has a son named joe. now one day, bob sees something he wants in a store but can't afford. so he takes joe to the store, grabs both his hands and forces him (joe) to grab the item he (bob) wants and put it in his (joe's) pocket. now please tell me, who is responsible for the theft? joe, or bob?

If Bob is God and Joe is His Son, then neither are responsible, because, as God, He answers to no one.

God_is_Truth, have you ever chosen something you did not want to choose?

Jim

 

[Big Finn]

Do you believe God is sovereign, or that man is sovereign?

Do you Calvinists believe that the earth is the entirety, or vast majority, of God's creation? Do you believe it is the center of God's creation? That mankind is God's only sentient creation?

 

[Turbo]

• For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. Romans 7:14-16

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by lighthouse

Clete-
Hell is not reserved for those who reject Christ. Hell was made for Satan, and all the angels that followed him, in their rejection of God. Yes, people go there too, but it was not made for them. It is not reserved for them, but they go ther if they reject Christ's death [and therefore accept their own].

Don't be stupid.
I was not writing a precise theological tretise when I wrote that post. My meaning was clear. Such nit-picking is a waste of everyones time.
The fact is that people who refuse to glorify God will go to Hell.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Re: Ay ay, nudge nudge ...

Re: Ay ay, nudge nudge ...

Originally posted by Hilston

Z Man, I'm still waiting to see if Clete is going to answer my questions. If you see him, please give him a nudge.

See post 56

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Z Man

Ummmm......both?

How's that story have anything to do with this discussion? Do you believe God is sovereign, or that man is sovereign? Can you understand that the Bible tells us that there is a mystery concerning man's responsibility, yet God is absolutely sovereign at the same time?

you would honestly hold joe responsible for something he was forced to do? something he had absolutely no say in whatsoever?

i'll tie in the relevence shortly.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Re: Bob-God

Re: Bob-God

Originally posted by Hilston

God_is_truth writes:If Bob is God and Joe is His Son, then neither are responsible, because, as God, He answers to no one.

God_is_Truth, have you ever chosen something you did not want to choose?

Jim

you are partly right in your answer. but ignoring what they may stand for, just in this example, who would you hold responsible for the crime? bob or joe?

have i ever chosen something i didn't want to? good grief yes! i may have wanted to wear my blue shirt with a hole in it to chruch when i was a kid but my parents would have made my choose another one. so, i would have had to choose to wear a shirt i didn't want to wear. i chose something i didn't want to choose. i had to choose it.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Z Man

Ummmm......both?

How's that story have anything to do with this discussion? Do you believe God is sovereign, or that man is sovereign? Can you understand that the Bible tells us that there is a mystery concerning man's responsibility, yet God is absolutely sovereign at the same time?

How does the freedom to choose equate to being soveriegn?

Are you saying that God does not have the ability to soveriegnly delegate to us the authority to choose on our own the way we live our lives? If the authority to live our lives is granted to us by God wouldn't that mean our ability to freely choose is based upon God's soveriegnty?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Re: Healthy God ...

Re: Healthy God ...

Originally posted by Hilston

Just those events that would most benefit God's desire to save as many people as possible. A heinous evil murder of an innocent person prevents the salvation of that person forever. The stubbing of a toe does not.

It's strange you keep saying this.

Why doesn't a 26 year old person have a chance to become saved?

How on earth do you define "chance"?

When people are murdered or killed in a car crash or die quickly or a heart attack or brain aneurism do you view them as not having a chance for salvation? I sure don't!

Every person with a reasonable mental capacity has a chance and or responsibility to choose life. There is no guarantee that any of us will live to any specific age. It is all of our own responsibilities to make wise choices.... any day could be our last day.