Z Man you can think whatever you like.
But as far as I can tell boogerheads post(s) only further proved my point that we have the ability to reject God's will.
I wasn't going to argue against a post that agree's with my own point.
ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
But as far as I can tell boogerheads post(s) only further proved my point that we have the ability to reject God's will.
I wasn't going to argue against a post that agree's with my own point.
Z Man
New member
Look, bottom line, God predestines and is absolutely sovereign, yet He still holds us accountable. You seem to have a big problem with this, but don't take it out on me or my 'doctrine'; it's totally biblical that God predestines and is absolutely sovereign, yet He still holds us accountable for our actions.
Romans 9:18-20 (NLT)
So you see, God shows mercy to some just because he wants to, and he chooses to make some people refuse to listen. Well then, you might say, "Why does God blame people for not listening? Haven't they simply done what he made them do?" No, don't say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to criticize God?
Romans 9:18-20 (The Message)
All we're saying is that God has the first word, initiating the action in which we play our part for good or ill. Are you going to object, "So how can God blame us for anything since he's in charge of everything? If the big decisions are already made, what say do we have in it?" Who in the world do you think you are to second-guess God? Do you for one moment suppose any of us knows enough to call God into question?
Z Man
New member
Clete,
God did that in Genesis, remember? And look what happened...
The fact is, if God just threw us the "keys" to do whatever we wish and to choose to do whatever we please, we'd take them and run with them. Like the parable of the prodigal son, we'd use that freedom to please ourself, not to glorify God. We are slaves to sin. We are not free and do not have free wills. Our will is to do what we can for ourself, not to do anything for God.
That's why He needs to save, or free us from our bondage in sin. He chooses whom He wills to do this too. It's called election. He chooses based upon His good will and pleasure, not on anything we have done.
Z Man
New member
Ummmm.... on the contrary, if you actually read those posts, you would of noticed that she unveiled the true context of Proverbs 1:24 that you used to support your fanatical view that men can thwart God's will. Those verses were not in reference to God's will, but rather, in rejecting "wisdom". Surely, you know the difference, no?
BTW, you have yet to reply to this:
If God inclined these afflictions upon all of these people (and trust me, there are several, numerous more examples), then what makes you think that a woman declaring that God gave her cancer is a bad thing? If God willed the suffering and death of His own Son, why is it wrong for Him to do it to a simple, sinful human being? Are we not His creation? Can He not do to us as He pleases? Who are you to tell Him He's wrong?
Huh? What does your answer have to do with what I asked?
Amazing that you actually believe that God is infatuated with Himself. I find this to be incredible. The picture you have of God is one that portrays Him about as negatively as is humanly possible.
Infatuate from Merriam Webster's Online Dictionary:
In your eyes God is inspired with a foolish and extravagant love and admiration for Himself. In other words He is a spoiled brat with omnipotent power. That is nothing more than blasphemy as far as I'm concerned. I don't know how many other people will see it that way, but I certainly do. That you would worship someone that you see as being that way being speaks volumes about you.
It does, however, explain your insistence upon Calvinistic theology. I don't know if you had this idea of God before you heard of Calvinism and that's why you became a Calvinist, or if you developed this picture of God from Calvinism itself, but from what I can see of Calvinism it is either one or the other.
I didn't think I'd ever see a Calvinist actually admit to worshipping this kind of God, but I now have. Thank you Zman. You have proven everything I have ever suspected about Calvinism to be true.
I guess you find self-infatuation, which is nothing more than selfishness, worthy of emulation and to be the motivating factor in God. I am simply amazed and could hardly believe my eyes as I have read your last couple of posts.
Funny how the definition of sin, selfishness, is the root of your picture of God isn't it? Don't you find that to be disturbing in the least? You believe God is sinful. ***shakes head in amazement***
Paul said that there would come a time when people would not accept sound doctrine, and that men hold the knowledge of God in unrighteousness. Are his words ever true.
If God was truly a self-absorbed, self-infatutated being He wouldn't have sacrificed His Son to save a small portion of an ungrateful world. He would have just wiped out His mistake and started over. He would have cared less about the beings He had created. He wouldn't have lifted a finger to help them.
Z Man
New member
God loving Himself is far from being selfish; in fact, it's the very thing we find our joy in - His glory.
Revelations 4:11
"You are worthy, O Lord, To receive glory and honor and power; For You created all things, And by Your will they exist and were created."
Why do you think Christ came to die? For our glory? HAHA! Yeah right...
Isaiah 48:11
For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it ... And I will not give My glory to another.
philosophizer
New member
Re: Nicer than God?
Re: Nicer than God?
I think all this talk about God preventing what we view as terrible catastrophies seems to ignore that all things should have consequences.
Sin has consequences. And because the world is a VAST interwoven network of everybody's actions, the consequences are all interdependent.
If we interrupt that network at any point, we are being unfair to the consequences.
Basically, if we follow that way of thinking, then God should have let go of the atoms holding one of the tree trunks in Eden together so it would fall on Eve and kill her before she was able to eat the fruit.
But God doesn't do that sort of thing. God allows us to suffer the consequences of our disobedience. That seems to be the main lesson in life. For God to intervene in the manner Hilston suggests might not violate "free will." But it certainly violates what God seems to want for our lives: the learning experience of consequences. It would make no sense for Him to apply it to events like 9-11 if He wasn't going to apply it to Adam and Eve's disobedience.
Re: Nicer than God?
I think all this talk about God preventing what we view as terrible catastrophies seems to ignore that all things should have consequences.
Sin has consequences. And because the world is a VAST interwoven network of everybody's actions, the consequences are all interdependent.
If we interrupt that network at any point, we are being unfair to the consequences.
Basically, if we follow that way of thinking, then God should have let go of the atoms holding one of the tree trunks in Eden together so it would fall on Eve and kill her before she was able to eat the fruit.
But God doesn't do that sort of thing. God allows us to suffer the consequences of our disobedience. That seems to be the main lesson in life. For God to intervene in the manner Hilston suggests might not violate "free will." But it certainly violates what God seems to want for our lives: the learning experience of consequences. It would make no sense for Him to apply it to events like 9-11 if He wasn't going to apply it to Adam and Eve's disobedience.
LOL... :chuckle: Z Man... IF God programs us in every way..... then every thought, every action, every.... EVERYTHING is God's will! Including our wisdom or lack thereof.
Therefore, if we are rejecting His wisdom we are using a "will" apart from His.
You continue...
Simple... the Bible tells the story of God creating man and woman perfect.... no sin.... no cancer... no death. Then, due to man's rebellion against God sin and death entered the world. It is sin that is to blame for the women's cancer not God.
This is a fundamentally simple biblical concept that your sick twisted theology fails to see.
boogerhead
New member
hey buddy that's a big fat negative...my intentions were not to support your stand but instead to suggest that you re-read the verses you pulled out in context of the verses around them to see that they do NOT support what you are claiming...proverbs 1:24 is about the dangers of rejecting wisdom...not God...you can't just pull out one verse that has stuff about rejection and assume that it's about rejecting God...when God calls us, He does so with an irresistable love and mercy...
the other verse from john also need to be read in context of it's surrounding verses...Jesus is saying that we can't rely on just our understanding and study of scripture to have life b/c He is the very one of whom these scriptures speak...He's explaining that just relying on scripture, thereby "refusing" him, will not grant life...just b/c the words "refuse me" are in the verse doesn't mean that it supports your claim...
Z Man
New member
Desiring God - by John Piper
Chapter 1: The Happiness of God
But God's saving designs are penultimate, not ultimate. Redemption, salvation, and restoration are not God's ultimate goal. These he performs for the sake of something greater: namely, the enjoyment he has in glorifying himself.
If God were not infinitely devoted to the preservation, display, and enjoyment of his own glory, we could have no hope of finding happiness in him. But if he does in fact employ all his sovereign power and infinite wisdom to maximize the enjoyment of his own glory, then we have a foundation on which to stand and rejoice.
God's Happiness Is in Himself
The chief end of God is to glorify God
and enjoy himself forever.
What we have seen so far is that God is absolutely sovereign over the world and that he can therefore do anything he pleases, and is therefore not a frustrated God, but a deeply happy God, rejoicing in all his works ( Psalm 104:31), when he considers them in relation to redemptive history.
What we have not yet seen is how this unshakable happiness of God is indeed a happiness in himself. We have seen that God has the sovereign power to do whatever he pleases, but we have not yet seen specifically what it is that pleases him. Why is it that contemplating the mosaic of redemptive history delights the heart of God? Is this not idolatry-for God to delight in something other than himself?
So now we must ask: What does make God happy? What is it about redemptive history that delights the heart of God? The way to answer this question is to survey what God pursues in all his works. If we could discover what one thing God pursues in everything he does, we would know what he delights in most. We would know what was uppermost in his affections.
God Delights in His Glory
In Appendix 1, I present a brief survey of the high points of redemptive history in order to discover God's ultimate goal in all he does. If what follows seems out of sync with Scripture, I urge you to examine the supporting evidence of that appendix .
My conclusion there is that God's own glory is uppermost in his own affections. In everything he does, his purpose is to preserve and display that glory. To say his glory is uppermost in his own affections means that he puts a greater value an it than on anything else. He delights in his glory above all things.
Glory is not easy to define. It is like beauty. How would you define beauty? Some things we have to point at rather than define. But let me try. God's glory is the beauty of his manifold perfections. It can refer to the bright and awesome radiance that sometimes breaks forth in visible manifestations. Or it can refer to the infinite moral excellence of his character. In either case it signifies a reality of infinite greatness and worth. C. S. Lewis helps us with his own effort to point at It:
Nature never taught me that there exists a God of glory and of infinite majesty. I had to learn that in other ways. But nature gave the word glory a meaning for me. I still do not know where else I could have found one. I do not see how the "fear" of God could have ever meant to me anything but the lowest prudential efforts to be safe, if I had never seen certain ominous ravines and unapproachable crags.
God's ultimate goal therefore is to preserve and display his infinite and awesome greatness and worth, that is, his glory.
God has many other goals in what he does. But none of them is more ultimate than this. They are all subordinate. God's overwhelming passion is to exalt the value of his glory. To that end he seeks to display it, to oppose those who belittle it, and to vindicate it from all contempt. It is clearly the uppermost reality in his affections. He loves his glory infinitely.
This is the same as saying: He loves himself infinitely. Or: He himself is uppermost in his own affections. A moment's reflection reveals the inexorable justice of this fact. God would be unrighteous (just as we would) if he valued anything more than what is supremely valuable. But he himself is supremely valuable. If he did not take infinite delight in the worth of his own glory he would be unrighteous. For it is right to take delight in a person in proportion to the excellence of that person's glory.
God Delights in the Glory of His Son
Therefore when the Father beheld the Son from all eternity, he was beholding the exact representation of himself. As Hebrews 1:3 says, the Son "reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature." And 2 Corinthians 4:4 speaks of "the glory of Christ, who is the likeness of God."
From these texts we learn that through all eternity God the Father has beheld the image of his own glory perfectly represented in the person of his Son. Therefore one of the best ways to think about God's infinite enjoyment of his own glory is to think of it as the delight he has in his Son who is the perfect reflection of that glory (see John 17:24-26).
When Christ entered the world, God the Father said, "This is my beloved Son with whom I am well pleased" (Matthew 3 :17) . As God the Father contemplates the image of his own glory in the person of his Son, he is infinitely happy. "Behold my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen, in whom my soul delights" ( Isaiah 42:1 ).
Within the triune Godhead (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), God has been uppermost in his own affections for all eternity. This belongs to his very nature, for he has begotten and loved the Son from all eternity. Therefore God has been supremely and eternally happy in the fellowship of the Trinity.
God Delights in the Glory of His Work
In creation God "went public" with the glory that reverberates joyfully between the Father and the Son! There is something about the fullness of God's joy that inclines it to overflow. There is an expansive quality to his joy. It wants to share itself. The impulse to create the world was not from weakness, as though God were lacking in some perfection which creation could supply. "It is no argument of the emptiness or deficiency of a fountain, that it is inclined to over flow."
God loves to behold his glory reflected in his works. So the eternal happiness of the triune God spilled over in the work of creation and redemption. And since this original happiness was God's delight in his own glory, therefore the happiness that he has in all his works of creation and redemption is nothing other than a delight in his own glory. This is why God has done all things, from creation to consummation, for the preservation and display of his glory. All his works are simply the spillover of his infinite exuberance for his own excellence.
Is God for Us or for Himself?
Now we begin to see how the issue of God's happiness can make or break the philosophy of Christian Hedonism. If God were so self-centered that he had no inclination to love his -creatures, then Christian Hedonism would be dead. Christian Hedonism depends on the open arms of God. It depends on the readiness of God to accept and save and satisfy the heart of all who seek their joy in him. But if God is on an ego trip and out of reach, then it is in vain that we pursue our happiness in him.
Is God for us or for himself? Precisely in answering this question we will discover the great foundation for Christian Hedonism.
Is He Vain Or Loving To Command Our Praise?
The Bible is replete with commands to praise God. God commands it because this is the ultimate goal of all he does-"to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all who have believed" (2 Thessalonians 1:10). Three times in Ephesians 1 this great aim is proclaimed: God "predestined us in love to be his sons . . . to the praise of the glory of his grace!" ( 1:5-6); "We . . . have been predestined and appointed to live for the praise of his glory" (1:12); the Holy Spirit "is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory" ( 1:14).
All the different ways God has chosen to display his glory in creation and redemption seem to reach their culmination in the praises of his redeemed people. God governs the world with glory precisely that he might be admired, marveled at, exalted and praised. The climax of his happiness is the delight he takes in the echoes of his excellence in the praises of the saints.
But again and again I have found that people stumble over this truth. People do not like to hear that God is uppermost in his own affections, or that he does all things for his own glory, or that he exalts himself and seeks the praise of men.
Why? There are at least two reasons. One is that we just don't like people who are like that. The other is that the Bible teaches us not to be like that. Let's examine these objections and see if they can apply to God.
Is God A Second-Hander?
First, we just don't like people who seem to be enamored by their own intelligence or strength or skill or good looks or wealth. We don't like scholars who try to show off their specialized knowledge, or who recite for us all their recent publications. We don't like businessmen who talk about how shrewdly they have invested their money and how they stayed right on top of the market to get in low and out high. We don't like children to play one-upmanship (Mine's bigger! Mine's faster! Mine's prettier!). And unless we are one of them, we disapprove of men and women who dress not functionally and simply, but to attract attention with the latest style.
Why don't we like all that? I think at root it's because those people are inauthentic. They are what Ayn Rand calls "second-handers." They don't live from the joy that comes through achieving what they value for its own sake. Instead, they live secondhand from the compliments of others. They have one eye on their action and one on their audience. We simply do not admire second-handers. We admire people who are secure and composed enough that they don't need to shore up their weaknesses and compensate for their deficiencies by trying to get compliments.
It stands to reason, then, that any teaching that puts God in the category of a second-hander will be unacceptable to Christians. And for many the teaching that God seeks to show off his glory and get the praise of men does in fact put him in the category of a second-hander. But should it?
One thing is certain: God is not weak and has no deficiencies. "All things are from him and through him and to him" (Romans 11:36). "He is not served by human hands as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all men life and breath and everything" ( Acts 17:25). Everything that exists owes its existence to him, and no one can add anything to him which is not already flowing from him. Therefore God's zeal to seek his own glory and to be praised by men cannot be owing to his need to shore up some weakness or compensate for some deficiency. He may look, at first glance, like one of the second-handers, but he is not like them, and the superficial similarity must be explained another way.
"Love Seeks Not Its Own" -- Except In The Joy Of Others.
The answer I propose is this: Because God is unique as an all-glorious, totally self-sufficient Being, he must be for himself if he is to be for us. The rules of humility that belong to a creature cannot apply in the same way to its Creator. If God should turn away from himself as the Source of infinite joy, he would cease to be God. He would deny the infinite worth of his own glory. He would imply that there is something more valuable outside himself. He would commit idolatry.
This would be no gain for us. For where can we go when our God has become unrighteous? Where will we find a Rock of integrity in the universe when the heart of God has ceased to value supremely the supremely valuable? Where shall we turn with our adoration when God himself has forsaken the claims of infinite worth and beauty?
No, we do not turn God's self-exaltation into love by demanding that God cease to be God. Instead we must come to see that God is love precisely because he relentlessly pursues the praises of his name in the hearts of his people.
Delight Is Incomplete Until It Is Expressed.
Consider this question: In view of God's infinite power and wisdom and beauty, what would his love to a human being involve? Or to put it another way: What could God give us to enjoy that would prove him most loving? There is only one possible answer: himself! If he withholds himself from our contemplation and companionship, no matter what else he gives us, he is not loving.
Now we are on the brink of what for me was a life-changing discovery. What do we all do when we are given or shown something beautiful or excellent? We praise it! We praise new little babies: "Oh, look at that nice round head! And all that hair! And her hands, aren't they perfect!" We praise a lover after a long absence: "Your eyes are like a cloudless sky! Your hair like forest silk!" We praise a grand slam in the bottom of the ninth when we are down by three. We praise the October trees along the banks of the St. Croix.
But the great discovery for me, as I said, came when reading "A Word about Praise" in C. S. Lewis's Reflections on the Psalms. His recorded thoughts-born from wrestling with the idea that God not only wants our praise but commands it--bear looking at again, in fuller form:
But the most obvious fact about praise-whether of God or any thing-strangely escaped me. I thought of it in terms of compliment, approval, or the giving of honor. I had never noticed that all enjoyment spontaneously overflows into praise unless (sometimes even if) shyness or the fear of boring others is deliberately brought in to check it. The world rings with praise-lovers praising their mistresses, readers their favorite poet, walkers praising the countryside, players praising their favorite game-praise of weather, wines, dishes, actors, motors, horses, colleges, countries, historical personages, children, flowers, mountains, rare stamps, rare beetles, even sometimes politicians or scholars. I had not noticed how the humblest, and at the same time most balanced and capacious, minds, praised most, while the cranks, misfits and malcontents praised least . . .
I had not noticed either that just as men spontaneously praise what ever they value, so they spontaneously urge us to join them in praising it: "Isn't she lovely? Wasn't it glorious? Don't you think that magnificent?" The Psalmists in telling everyone to praise God are doing what all men do when they speak of what they care about. My whole, more general, difficulty about the praise of God depended on my absurdly denying to us, as regards the supremely Valuable, what we delight to do, what indeed we can't help doing, about everything else we value.
I think we delight to praise what we enjoy because the praise not merely expresses but completes the enjoyment; it is its appointed consummation. It is not out of compliment that lovers keep on telling one another how beautiful they are; the delight is incomplete till it is expressed.
There is the solution! We praise what we enjoy because the delight is incomplete until it is expressed in praise. If we were not allowed to speak of what we value, and celebrate what we love, and praise what we admire, our joy would not be full. So if God loves us enough to make our joy full, he must not only give us himself; he must also win from us the praise of our hearts-not because he needs to shore up some weakness in himself or compensate for some deficiency, but because he loves us and seeks the fullness of our joy that can be found only in knowing and praising him, the most magnificent of all Beings. If he is truly for us he must be for himself!
God is the one Being in all the universe for whom seeking his own praise is the ultimately loving act. For him, self-exaltation is the highest virtue. When he does all things ``for the praise of his glory," he preserves for us and offers to us the only thing in all the world which can satisfy our longings. God is for us! And the foundation of this love is that God has been, is now, and always will be, for himself.
Summary
His happiness is the delight he has in himself. Before creation he rejoiced in the image of his glory in the person of his Son. Then the joy of God "went public" in the works of creation and redemption. These works delight the heart of God because they reflect his glory. He does everything he does to preserve and display that glory, for in this his soul rejoices.
All the works of God culminate in the praises of his redeemed people. The climax of his happiness is the delight he takes in the echoes of his excellence in the praises of the saints. This praise is the consummation of our own joy in God. Therefore God's pursuit of praise from us and our pursuit of pleasure in him are the same pursuit. This is the great gospel!
-taken from here
Chapter 1: The Happiness of God
The reason this may sound strange is that we are more accustomed to think about our duty than God's design. And when we do ask about God's design we are too prone to describe it with ourselves at the center of God's affections. We may say, for example, his design is to redeem the world. Or to save sinners. Or to restore creation. Or the like.
But God's saving designs are penultimate, not ultimate. Redemption, salvation, and restoration are not God's ultimate goal. These he performs for the sake of something greater: namely, the enjoyment he has in glorifying himself.
If God were not infinitely devoted to the preservation, display, and enjoyment of his own glory, we could have no hope of finding happiness in him. But if he does in fact employ all his sovereign power and infinite wisdom to maximize the enjoyment of his own glory, then we have a foundation on which to stand and rejoice.
God's Happiness Is in Himself
I began this chapter by saying that God is uppermost in his own affections:
The chief end of God is to glorify God
and enjoy himself forever.
What we have seen so far is that God is absolutely sovereign over the world and that he can therefore do anything he pleases, and is therefore not a frustrated God, but a deeply happy God, rejoicing in all his works ( Psalm 104:31), when he considers them in relation to redemptive history.
What we have not yet seen is how this unshakable happiness of God is indeed a happiness in himself. We have seen that God has the sovereign power to do whatever he pleases, but we have not yet seen specifically what it is that pleases him. Why is it that contemplating the mosaic of redemptive history delights the heart of God? Is this not idolatry-for God to delight in something other than himself?
So now we must ask: What does make God happy? What is it about redemptive history that delights the heart of God? The way to answer this question is to survey what God pursues in all his works. If we could discover what one thing God pursues in everything he does, we would know what he delights in most. We would know what was uppermost in his affections.
God Delights in His Glory
In Appendix 1, I present a brief survey of the high points of redemptive history in order to discover God's ultimate goal in all he does. If what follows seems out of sync with Scripture, I urge you to examine the supporting evidence of that appendix .
My conclusion there is that God's own glory is uppermost in his own affections. In everything he does, his purpose is to preserve and display that glory. To say his glory is uppermost in his own affections means that he puts a greater value an it than on anything else. He delights in his glory above all things.
Glory is not easy to define. It is like beauty. How would you define beauty? Some things we have to point at rather than define. But let me try. God's glory is the beauty of his manifold perfections. It can refer to the bright and awesome radiance that sometimes breaks forth in visible manifestations. Or it can refer to the infinite moral excellence of his character. In either case it signifies a reality of infinite greatness and worth. C. S. Lewis helps us with his own effort to point at It:
Nature never taught me that there exists a God of glory and of infinite majesty. I had to learn that in other ways. But nature gave the word glory a meaning for me. I still do not know where else I could have found one. I do not see how the "fear" of God could have ever meant to me anything but the lowest prudential efforts to be safe, if I had never seen certain ominous ravines and unapproachable crags.
God's ultimate goal therefore is to preserve and display his infinite and awesome greatness and worth, that is, his glory.
God has many other goals in what he does. But none of them is more ultimate than this. They are all subordinate. God's overwhelming passion is to exalt the value of his glory. To that end he seeks to display it, to oppose those who belittle it, and to vindicate it from all contempt. It is clearly the uppermost reality in his affections. He loves his glory infinitely.
This is the same as saying: He loves himself infinitely. Or: He himself is uppermost in his own affections. A moment's reflection reveals the inexorable justice of this fact. God would be unrighteous (just as we would) if he valued anything more than what is supremely valuable. But he himself is supremely valuable. If he did not take infinite delight in the worth of his own glory he would be unrighteous. For it is right to take delight in a person in proportion to the excellence of that person's glory.
God Delights in the Glory of His Son
Another moment's reflection reminds us that this is exactly what we affirm when we affirm the eternal divinity of God's Son. We stand at the foothills of mystery in all these things. But the Scriptures have given us some glimpses of the heights. They teach us that the Son of God is himself God: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1). "In him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily" ( Colossians 2:9).
Therefore when the Father beheld the Son from all eternity, he was beholding the exact representation of himself. As Hebrews 1:3 says, the Son "reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature." And 2 Corinthians 4:4 speaks of "the glory of Christ, who is the likeness of God."
From these texts we learn that through all eternity God the Father has beheld the image of his own glory perfectly represented in the person of his Son. Therefore one of the best ways to think about God's infinite enjoyment of his own glory is to think of it as the delight he has in his Son who is the perfect reflection of that glory (see John 17:24-26).
When Christ entered the world, God the Father said, "This is my beloved Son with whom I am well pleased" (Matthew 3 :17) . As God the Father contemplates the image of his own glory in the person of his Son, he is infinitely happy. "Behold my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen, in whom my soul delights" ( Isaiah 42:1 ).
Within the triune Godhead (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), God has been uppermost in his own affections for all eternity. This belongs to his very nature, for he has begotten and loved the Son from all eternity. Therefore God has been supremely and eternally happy in the fellowship of the Trinity.
God Delights in the Glory of His Work
In creation God "went public" with the glory that reverberates joyfully between the Father and the Son! There is something about the fullness of God's joy that inclines it to overflow. There is an expansive quality to his joy. It wants to share itself. The impulse to create the world was not from weakness, as though God were lacking in some perfection which creation could supply. "It is no argument of the emptiness or deficiency of a fountain, that it is inclined to over flow."
God loves to behold his glory reflected in his works. So the eternal happiness of the triune God spilled over in the work of creation and redemption. And since this original happiness was God's delight in his own glory, therefore the happiness that he has in all his works of creation and redemption is nothing other than a delight in his own glory. This is why God has done all things, from creation to consummation, for the preservation and display of his glory. All his works are simply the spillover of his infinite exuberance for his own excellence.
Is God for Us or for Himself?
But now the question arises: If God is so utterly enamored of his own glory, how can he be a God of love? If he unwaveringly does all things for his own sake, how then can we have any hope that he will do anything for our sake? Does not the apostle say, "Love seeks not its own" ( 1 Corinthians 13: 5) ?
Now we begin to see how the issue of God's happiness can make or break the philosophy of Christian Hedonism. If God were so self-centered that he had no inclination to love his -creatures, then Christian Hedonism would be dead. Christian Hedonism depends on the open arms of God. It depends on the readiness of God to accept and save and satisfy the heart of all who seek their joy in him. But if God is on an ego trip and out of reach, then it is in vain that we pursue our happiness in him.
Is God for us or for himself? Precisely in answering this question we will discover the great foundation for Christian Hedonism.
Is He Vain Or Loving To Command Our Praise?
The Bible is replete with commands to praise God. God commands it because this is the ultimate goal of all he does-"to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all who have believed" (2 Thessalonians 1:10). Three times in Ephesians 1 this great aim is proclaimed: God "predestined us in love to be his sons . . . to the praise of the glory of his grace!" ( 1:5-6); "We . . . have been predestined and appointed to live for the praise of his glory" (1:12); the Holy Spirit "is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory" ( 1:14).
All the different ways God has chosen to display his glory in creation and redemption seem to reach their culmination in the praises of his redeemed people. God governs the world with glory precisely that he might be admired, marveled at, exalted and praised. The climax of his happiness is the delight he takes in the echoes of his excellence in the praises of the saints.
But again and again I have found that people stumble over this truth. People do not like to hear that God is uppermost in his own affections, or that he does all things for his own glory, or that he exalts himself and seeks the praise of men.
Why? There are at least two reasons. One is that we just don't like people who are like that. The other is that the Bible teaches us not to be like that. Let's examine these objections and see if they can apply to God.
Is God A Second-Hander?
First, we just don't like people who seem to be enamored by their own intelligence or strength or skill or good looks or wealth. We don't like scholars who try to show off their specialized knowledge, or who recite for us all their recent publications. We don't like businessmen who talk about how shrewdly they have invested their money and how they stayed right on top of the market to get in low and out high. We don't like children to play one-upmanship (Mine's bigger! Mine's faster! Mine's prettier!). And unless we are one of them, we disapprove of men and women who dress not functionally and simply, but to attract attention with the latest style.
Why don't we like all that? I think at root it's because those people are inauthentic. They are what Ayn Rand calls "second-handers." They don't live from the joy that comes through achieving what they value for its own sake. Instead, they live secondhand from the compliments of others. They have one eye on their action and one on their audience. We simply do not admire second-handers. We admire people who are secure and composed enough that they don't need to shore up their weaknesses and compensate for their deficiencies by trying to get compliments.
It stands to reason, then, that any teaching that puts God in the category of a second-hander will be unacceptable to Christians. And for many the teaching that God seeks to show off his glory and get the praise of men does in fact put him in the category of a second-hander. But should it?
One thing is certain: God is not weak and has no deficiencies. "All things are from him and through him and to him" (Romans 11:36). "He is not served by human hands as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all men life and breath and everything" ( Acts 17:25). Everything that exists owes its existence to him, and no one can add anything to him which is not already flowing from him. Therefore God's zeal to seek his own glory and to be praised by men cannot be owing to his need to shore up some weakness or compensate for some deficiency. He may look, at first glance, like one of the second-handers, but he is not like them, and the superficial similarity must be explained another way.
"Love Seeks Not Its Own" -- Except In The Joy Of Others.
The second reason people stumble over the teaching that God exalts his own glory and seeks to be praised by his people is that the Bible teaches us not to be like that. For example, the Bible says that "Love seeks not its own" ( 1 Corinthians 13:5). How can God be loving and yet be utterly devoted to "seeking his own" glory and praise and joy? How can God be for us if he is so utterly for himself?
The answer I propose is this: Because God is unique as an all-glorious, totally self-sufficient Being, he must be for himself if he is to be for us. The rules of humility that belong to a creature cannot apply in the same way to its Creator. If God should turn away from himself as the Source of infinite joy, he would cease to be God. He would deny the infinite worth of his own glory. He would imply that there is something more valuable outside himself. He would commit idolatry.
This would be no gain for us. For where can we go when our God has become unrighteous? Where will we find a Rock of integrity in the universe when the heart of God has ceased to value supremely the supremely valuable? Where shall we turn with our adoration when God himself has forsaken the claims of infinite worth and beauty?
No, we do not turn God's self-exaltation into love by demanding that God cease to be God. Instead we must come to see that God is love precisely because he relentlessly pursues the praises of his name in the hearts of his people.
Delight Is Incomplete Until It Is Expressed.
Consider this question: In view of God's infinite power and wisdom and beauty, what would his love to a human being involve? Or to put it another way: What could God give us to enjoy that would prove him most loving? There is only one possible answer: himself! If he withholds himself from our contemplation and companionship, no matter what else he gives us, he is not loving.
Now we are on the brink of what for me was a life-changing discovery. What do we all do when we are given or shown something beautiful or excellent? We praise it! We praise new little babies: "Oh, look at that nice round head! And all that hair! And her hands, aren't they perfect!" We praise a lover after a long absence: "Your eyes are like a cloudless sky! Your hair like forest silk!" We praise a grand slam in the bottom of the ninth when we are down by three. We praise the October trees along the banks of the St. Croix.
But the great discovery for me, as I said, came when reading "A Word about Praise" in C. S. Lewis's Reflections on the Psalms. His recorded thoughts-born from wrestling with the idea that God not only wants our praise but commands it--bear looking at again, in fuller form:
But the most obvious fact about praise-whether of God or any thing-strangely escaped me. I thought of it in terms of compliment, approval, or the giving of honor. I had never noticed that all enjoyment spontaneously overflows into praise unless (sometimes even if) shyness or the fear of boring others is deliberately brought in to check it. The world rings with praise-lovers praising their mistresses, readers their favorite poet, walkers praising the countryside, players praising their favorite game-praise of weather, wines, dishes, actors, motors, horses, colleges, countries, historical personages, children, flowers, mountains, rare stamps, rare beetles, even sometimes politicians or scholars. I had not noticed how the humblest, and at the same time most balanced and capacious, minds, praised most, while the cranks, misfits and malcontents praised least . . .
I had not noticed either that just as men spontaneously praise what ever they value, so they spontaneously urge us to join them in praising it: "Isn't she lovely? Wasn't it glorious? Don't you think that magnificent?" The Psalmists in telling everyone to praise God are doing what all men do when they speak of what they care about. My whole, more general, difficulty about the praise of God depended on my absurdly denying to us, as regards the supremely Valuable, what we delight to do, what indeed we can't help doing, about everything else we value.
I think we delight to praise what we enjoy because the praise not merely expresses but completes the enjoyment; it is its appointed consummation. It is not out of compliment that lovers keep on telling one another how beautiful they are; the delight is incomplete till it is expressed.
There is the solution! We praise what we enjoy because the delight is incomplete until it is expressed in praise. If we were not allowed to speak of what we value, and celebrate what we love, and praise what we admire, our joy would not be full. So if God loves us enough to make our joy full, he must not only give us himself; he must also win from us the praise of our hearts-not because he needs to shore up some weakness in himself or compensate for some deficiency, but because he loves us and seeks the fullness of our joy that can be found only in knowing and praising him, the most magnificent of all Beings. If he is truly for us he must be for himself!
God is the one Being in all the universe for whom seeking his own praise is the ultimately loving act. For him, self-exaltation is the highest virtue. When he does all things ``for the praise of his glory," he preserves for us and offers to us the only thing in all the world which can satisfy our longings. God is for us! And the foundation of this love is that God has been, is now, and always will be, for himself.
Summary
God is absolutely sovereign. "Our God is in the heavens; he does whatever he pleases!" (Psalm 115:3). Therefore he is not frustrated. He rejoices in all his works when he contemplates them as colors of the magnificent mosaic of redemptive history. He is an unshakably happy God.
His happiness is the delight he has in himself. Before creation he rejoiced in the image of his glory in the person of his Son. Then the joy of God "went public" in the works of creation and redemption. These works delight the heart of God because they reflect his glory. He does everything he does to preserve and display that glory, for in this his soul rejoices.
All the works of God culminate in the praises of his redeemed people. The climax of his happiness is the delight he takes in the echoes of his excellence in the praises of the saints. This praise is the consummation of our own joy in God. Therefore God's pursuit of praise from us and our pursuit of pleasure in him are the same pursuit. This is the great gospel!
-taken from here
Z Man,
Are you awake? Hello!!! Anybody home?
Have you completely lost your mind? Are you trying to tell me that mankind had freewill up until Noah's flood and then all the predestination stuff started? Is that really what you are saying?
Is that your whole argument that is supposed to somehow defeat my point that man being given a free will does not usurp God sovereignty?
Please tell me that you took one to many cold pills before you wrote this post! Please tell me that I have not wasted my respect on someone capable of such complete lunacy as this! Surely you can see that in one post you've completely destroyed the entire Calvinist theological construct!
Here's the bottom line. If Adam and Eve had a free will, so do I. If Adam's freedom didn't usurp God's sovereignty then neither does mine. And most importantly if even one single person (including God) has free will then there is nothing in the Bible that could possibly prove that I do not. It's an all or nothing prospect, if the Calvinist brand of predestination is true then ANYTHING, good, bad, ugly, or indifferent ever happens at all, then it is because God made it happen, period. Therefore it is God and God alone who is responsible for what happens not you not me not Hitler or and one else. Punishment of even one single sin would therefore be fundamentally unjust and cruel and God would be a liar and a sadist. Calvinism is foolishness to the absolute degree, worse even than atheism! You say that you think that Calvinism paints a more glorious picture of God! That makes me want to vomit! Perhaps it's a more glorious picture of God to Satan! The Calvinist God cannot change, it cannot feel, think, or move. Your god resembles a stone idol more than the living God of the Bible. How can such a god be glorious at all? It's revolting!
Resting in Him,
Clete
Poly
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This is a question I've asked myself over and over. I don't get why a sovereign God must mean a God that preprogrammed everything.
Our kids make their own choices. But it still doesn't make Hubby nor myself any less sovereign over our household.
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But surely God can't be that powerful can He? I mean to trust that His glory will come about despite sin that entered the world? That's quite a bit of power over all. Maybe God is the weaker Calvinistic God who had to make sure that glory would be given to Himself by programming it ahead of time :think:
Z Man
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What?! No! Absolutely not! I don't know what gave you that idea, but I'm sorry if I mislead you into thinking that...
Every 'Calvinist' I know would agree with this:
The fact is, if God just threw us the "keys" to do whatever we wish and to choose to do whatever we please, we'd take them and run with them. Like the parable of the prodigal son, we'd use that freedom to please ourself, not to glorify God. We are slaves to sin. We are not free and do not have free wills. Our will is to do what we can for ourself, not to do anything for God.
That's why He needs to save, or free us from our bondage in sin. He chooses whom He wills to do this too. It's called election. He chooses based upon His good will and pleasure, not on anything we have done.
Sorry buddy. Adam blew it:
Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned.
I never meant to imply that Adam had a total free will apart from God; what happened in Eden was ordained - it was all a part of God's plan.
What happened with Adam is sort of a reverse of what happens to those whom Christ saves. In Adam, he went from closeness to God to total seperation. He gave up his freedom for slavery to sin. However, in contrast, those whom Christ has saved are saved from slavery to sin and are brought into freedom in Him, our Savior.
So if God has it, your suppose to have it too? I don't see you parting seas or rivers, or answering people's prayers, or creating things out of nothing, by your spoken word...
This type of mockery and objection to God's sovereignty sounds familiar... :think: ....
AH yes! Paul rebuked people of your type:
Romans 9:18-20 (NLT)
So you see, God shows mercy to some just because he wants to, and he chooses to make some people refuse to listen. Well then, you might say, "Why does God blame people for not listening? Haven't they simply done what he made them do?" No, don't say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to criticize God?
That may not have been your intention but it certainly was your outcome.
Please don't copy and paste huge volumes of text from others websites. (that has been a long standing rule - I am not picking on you).
If you have a point to make.... make it yourself!