ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Z Man,

Are you awake? Hello!!! Anybody home?
Have you completely lost your mind? Are you trying to tell me that mankind had freewill up until Noah's flood and then all the predestination stuff started? Is that really what you are saying?
Is that your whole argument that is supposed to somehow defeat my point that man being given a free will does not usurp God sovereignty?
Please tell me that you took one to many cold pills before you wrote this post! Please tell me that I have not wasted my respect on someone capable of such complete lunacy as this! Surely you can see that in one post you've completely destroyed the entire Calvinist theological construct!

Here's the bottom line. If Adam and Eve had a free will, so do I. If Adam's freedom didn't usurp God's sovereignty then neither does mine. And most importantly if even one single person (including God) has free will then there is nothing in the Bible that could possibly prove that I do not. It's an all or nothing prospect, if the Calvinist brand of predestination is true then ANYTHING, good, bad, ugly, or indifferent ever happens at all, then it is because God made it happen, period. Therefore it is God and God alone who is responsible for what happens not you not me not Hitler or and one else. Punishment of even one single sin would therefore be fundamentally unjust and cruel and God would be a liar and a sadist. Calvinism is foolishness to the absolute degree, worse even than atheism! You say that you think that Calvinism paints a more glorious picture of God! That makes me want to vomit! Perhaps it's a more glorious picture of God to Satan! The Calvinist God cannot change, it cannot feel, think, or move. Your god resembles a stone idol more than the living God of the Bible. How can such a god be glorious at all? It's revolting!

Resting in Him,
Clete

POTD :first:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Z Man

What did Christ do to ever be "crushed" by God?

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Z Man

Sorry buddy. Adam blew it:

I never meant to imply that Adam had a total free will apart from God; what happened in Eden was ordained - it was all a part of God's plan.

How is it that you cannot see the contradiction in these two statements?

According to the 2nd statement Adam's blowing it was ordained to happen. It was God's will. So Adam didn't blow it, he did the exact "God glorifying" thing that he was suppossed to do. He didn't have any choice in the matter, it was already settled before he drew his first breath!

Romans 9:18-20 (NLT)
So you see, God shows mercy to some just because he wants to, and he chooses to make some people refuse to listen. Well then, you might say, "Why does God blame people for not listening? Haven't they simply done what he made them do?" No, don't say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to criticize God?

The New Living Translation was translated by Calvinists. Quoting from it is no more valid than if you just simply stated it yourself. The translation of this particular passage is disgusting! :vomit:
Romans 9 is speaking of nations not individual people. Paul is making the same point that Jer. 18 is making. In fact he quotes from that very chapter.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[boogerhead]

Originally posted by Knight

That may not have been your intention but it certainly was your outcome.

hmmmm...no i don't think so...

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Knight

Simple... the Bible tells the story of God creating man and woman perfect.... no sin.... no cancer... no death. Then, due to man's rebellion against God sin and death entered the world. It is sin that is to blame for the women's cancer not God.

Originally posted by Z Man

What did Christ do to ever be "crushed" by God?

Exactly my point. Your notion that "God only 'punishes' or afflicts people based upon their sins" is wrong. Job was a righteous man before God, yet God spared no suffering and pain from him. Esau wasn't even born, yet God hated him. And Jesus never sinned, but that didn't stop God from allowing Him to be killed.

Thus, your stupid assumption that the woman gave herself cancer is, shall we say, a little "wack-o"... :kookoo:

 

[boogerhead]

Originally posted by Knight

That may not have been your intention but it certainly was your outcome.

i can see though how you may have perceived that i was supporting you...through reading your other posts i notice that opposing views are quickly dismissed or ignored or twisted in such a way that you think they support your claims...don't worry i used to be pretty hard-headed too...it'll pass...maybe...

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Z Man

Exactly my point. Your notion that "God only 'punishes' or afflicts people based upon their sins" is wrong. Job was a righteous man before God, yet God spared no suffering and pain from him. Esau wasn't even born, yet God hated him. And Jesus never sinned, but that didn't stop God from allowing Him to be killed.

Thus, your stupid assumption that the woman gave herself cancer is, shall we say, a little "wack-o"... :kookoo:

First of all I really do not appreciate your rude tone.

Secondly....
You purposefully misrepresented my statement and I am pretty sure you are aware of it.

I never once said that the lady gave herself cancer. And you know that.

I have said repeatedly that cancer, sin, pain and death are all a result of Adam's sin. This isn't exactly a revelation... and I am surprised you don't know the story yourself. When God created Adam and Eve there was no sickness, pain, sin or death.

God told Adam it would remain this way as long as Adam didn't eat from the tree.

Adam ate from the tree and therefore rebelled against God, bringing sin and death into the world.

Now that sin and death are in the world things like cancer happen.

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

According to the 2nd statement Adam's blowing it was ordained to happen. It was God's will. So Adam didn't blow it, he did the exact "God glorifying" thing that he was suppossed to do. He didn't have any choice in the matter, it was already settled before he drew his first breath!

And your point is?

The New Living Translation was translated by Calvinists. Quoting from it is no more valid than if you just simply stated it yourself. The translation of this particular passage is disgusting! :vomit:

:darwinsm:

That's the most retarded reply I think I've ever heard! No wonder Knight keeps giving you POTD's! :ha: Nevertheless, that's something I would expect you to say. Trying your darndest to avoid the obvious. This verse is exactly what you are doing; complaining that if God is absolutely sovereign, then why does He still find fault. Paul says that people like you need to shut up and realize what you are;

A MERE MAN!

:chuckle:

Romans 9 is speaking of nations not individual people. Paul is making the same point that Jer. 18 is making. In fact he quotes from that very chapter.

I'll post the same verse from another translation - from several for that matter! Do what you will with them, but the meaning of it still stands:

WHO ARE YOU TO TELL GOD IT"S WRONG FOR HIM TO HOLD US ACCOUNTABLE IF HE IS ABSOLUTELY SOVEREIGN?


Romans 9:18-20 (NAS)
So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God?

Romans 9:18-20 (ASB)
So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?

Romans 9:18-20 (NKJV)
Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God?

Romans 9:18-20 (KJV)
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?

Romans 9:18-20 (The Message)
All we're saying is that God has the first word, initiating the action in which we play our part for good or ill. Are you going to object, "So how can God blame us for anything since he's in charge of everything? If the big decisions are already made, what say do we have in it?" Who in the world do you think you are to second-guess God? Do you for one moment suppose any of us knows enough to call God into question?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by boogerhead

i can see though how you may have perceived that i was supporting you...through reading your other posts i notice that opposing views are quickly dismissed or ignored or twisted in such a way that you think they support your claims...don't worry i used to be pretty hard-headed too...it'll pass...maybe...

Yea your right... I am hard headed and you are not.

Is this the best you can do?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Z Man
That's the most retarded reply I think I've ever heard! No wonder Knight keeps giving you POTD's! :ha:

Z Man... uh... your going to have to tone it down.

 

[boogerhead]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

The New Living Translation was translated by Calvinists. Quoting from it is no more valid than if you just simply stated it yourself. The translation of this particular passage is disgusting! :vomit:

here's a few other translations...maybe they will be more valid to you...

Romans 9:18
(KJV) "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."

(ASV) "So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth."

(BBE) "So then, at his pleasure he has mercy on a man, and at his pleasure he makes the heart hard."

(WOR) "So then, he has mercy on whom he desires, and he hardens whom he desires."

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Knight

You purposefully misrepresented my statement and I am pretty sure you are aware of it.

Oh, so now your changing your mind?

I never once said that the lady gave herself cancer. And you know that.

Oh, I know that alright. I'm the one who says it was God. Who do you say it was?

I have said repeatedly that cancer, sin, pain and death are all a result of Adam's sin. This isn't exactly a revelation... and I am surprised you don't know the story yourself. When God created Adam and Eve there was no sickness, pain, sin or death.

God told Adam it would remain this way as long as Adam didn't eat from the tree.

Adam ate from the tree and therefore rebelled against God, bringing sin and death into the world.

Now that sin and death are in the world things like cancer happen.

Soooooooo...... Adam gave the woman cancer?

 

[Hilston]

Important question ...

Important question ...

Hi Knight,

I have a serious question to ask you. This is not intended as a dig or a complaint or an attempt to riducule or disparage you in any way. I just need to know ...

Knight wrote to Z-man:

the Bible tells the story of God creating man and woman perfect.... no sin.... no cancer... no death. Then, due to man's rebellion against God sin and death entered the world. It is sin that is to blame for the women's cancer not God. This is a fundamentally simple biblical concept that your sick twisted theology fails to see.

I can't speak for Z-man, and I don't agree with the way he represents Calvinism, but do you really think the theology espoused by Calvinism "fails to see" that sin and death entered the world through Adam's rebellion, or were you just using hyperbole? If it's the latter, that's OK, and I understand why you would say it. But if you meant that literally, I need to know.

Sincerely,
Jim

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Z Man

Look, bottom line, God predestines and is absolutely sovereign, yet He still holds us accountable. You seem to have a big problem with this, but don't take it out on me or my 'doctrine'; it's totally biblical that God predestines and is absolutely sovereign, yet He still holds us accountable for our actions.

Romans 9:18-20 (NLT)
So you see, God shows mercy to some just because he wants to, and he chooses to make some people refuse to listen. Well then, you might say, "Why does God blame people for not listening? Haven't they simply done what he made them do?" No, don't say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to criticize God?

Romans 9:18-20 (The Message)
All we're saying is that God has the first word, initiating the action in which we play our part for good or ill. Are you going to object, "So how can God blame us for anything since he's in charge of everything? If the big decisions are already made, what say do we have in it?" Who in the world do you think you are to second-guess God? Do you for one moment suppose any of us knows enough to call God into question?

what i was trying to show was that it's impossible to predestine someone to do something (that is you doing it and not them) and for them to be truly responsible for the action.

clearly the bible says we are responsible for our actions. but it does not clearly teach that everything is predestined.

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

what i was trying to show was that it's impossible to predestine someone to do something (that is you doing it and not them) and for them to be truly responsible for the action.

And what I was trying to show you was that Paul said it wasn't. People told him the same thing: "It's impossible for God to hold us accountable if it was His will. Why does He still find fault?" But Paul's reply shows that truely we are held responsible, and yet, God is absolutely soveriegn at the same time. It's not imossible; it's Scripturally sound.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Z Man

Soooooooo...... Adam gave the woman cancer?

Was there something about my explanation you didn't understand?

Crediting death and sin to Adam is fundamental to the gospel.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men - Romans 5:12

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Re: Important question ...

Re: Important question ...

Originally posted by Hilston

Hi Knight,

I have a serious question to ask you.

Good... I am tired on the the un-serious questions.

This is not intended as a dig or a complaint or an attempt to riducule or disparage you in any way.

Oh heavens no!

I can't speak for Z-man, and I don't agree with the way he represents Calvinism, but do you really think the theology espoused by Calvinism "fails to see" that sin and death entered the world through Adam's rebellion, or were you just using hyperbole? If it's the latter, that's OK, and I understand why you would say it. But if you meant that literally, I need to know.

Sincerely,
Jim

I brought this up because Z Man accused me of claiming that the lady gave herself cancer.

I was simply defending myself from Z Man's false accusation of me.

Actually my guess is that Z Man knew my position all along but maybe he thought it would be more damaging to misrepresent my position rather than confront it head on.

 

[Hilston]

Relieved.

Relieved.

Hi Knight,

You write:

Good... I am tired on the the un-serious questions.

As opposed to a rhetorical or ridiculing one, which we both know I am famous for. :freak:

I wrote: This is not intended as a dig or a complaint or an attempt to riducule or disparage you in any way.

Knight writes:

Oh heavens no!

It's still early.

Knight writes:

Actually my guess is that Z Man knew my position all along but maybe he thought it would be more damaging to misrepresent my position rather than confront it head on.

OK. So then I'm correct in saying that you do not really believe that Calvinism fails to see that sin and death entered the world through Adam's rebellion.

Whew. I'm relieved.

Thanks for replying.

Cheers my brutha.

Jim

 

[Delmar]

Re: Couldn't He stop it?

Re: Couldn't He stop it?

Originally posted by Hilston

here's a question for the Open Theists: Surely God could see what was transpiring as the 9/11 terrorists prepared to kill thousands of people. Would it have been against your theology for God to have figured out some way to prevent them from getting on those planes? (e.g. traffic jam? food poisoning? falling-piano or guardrail?) If yes, why? If no, why wouldn't God do everything He could to stop that tragedy?

Thanks,
Jim

PS: Knight -- I (finally) have another editorial cartoon coming -- soon. Cheers.

Jim I don't have a very good grasp of where you are coming from. How does your piont of view deal with this example?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Re: Relieved.

Re: Relieved.

Originally posted by Hilston
As opposed to a rhetorical or ridiculing one, which we both know I am famous for. :freak:

I have had my share as well.

This is not intended as a dig or a complaint or an attempt to riducule or disparage you in any way.

It's still early.

LOL. :chuckle:

OK. So then I'm correct in saying that you do not really believe that Calvinism fails to see that sin and death entered the world through Adam's rebellion.

Whew. I'm relieved.

Thanks for replying.

Cheers my brutha.

Jim

It's weird... I thought everyone agreed on that but sometimes I wonder. :think:

I mean.... you read these posts (not yours, but others) and you start to wonder what in the world people are really thinking!

But in this case.... like I said... I was only restating the "original sin" thing to show I didn't think that the woman gave herself cancer the way Z Man claimed I had.