11-year-old Gang-Rape Victim: Should She Be Able To Legally Abort?

[John Mortimer]

Well, apparently having babies is easy on the mother mentally and physically. You just go on about your business for 9 months and it magically exists your body. You don't go through a waterfall of emotions, sickness, mental anguish and then do the hardest work of your life to bring that baby from your womb to the outside world.

I'm not trying to pick on WoZ here. It just seems that people want to ignore the reality of pregnancy, birth and trauma of rape on the mind and body. They act as if it would be an easy thing to do. I don't understand why we choose to force the traumatized child to be further traumatized. Aborting an embryo very early in a pregnancy does not hurt. It does not suffer. The child carrying that embryo would be suffering. She would be suffering greatly and people want to add to it by legally telling her she must suffer more because that's their belief system.

I'll be honest - I actually find it disturbing that people who seem otherwise rational and compassionate put forward these views on this thread. It's almost as though they are determined to see people born into the world - including the 11 year old girl - but then, once you are in the world then you don't matter, you can be raped and forced to give birth to the spawn of rape and generally suffer. And this is not just theists........ it's mind blowing, and not in a good way!

 

[keypurr]

God considers a fetus a person, e.g. Jeremiah 1:5.



You don't question personhood; it's obvious that you deny it for the unborn. Are you against the fetal homicide laws in the U.S., too? Would you punish the victims of fetal homicide by denying them justice because you don't think a person was murdered?



The life of the mother is not threatened by pregnancy or birth because of rape. The fact the child was conceived through an act rape is irrelevant, just as it would be if it was statutory rape of a 14 year old who consented to having sex with an 18 year old and wanted to keep her baby. An eleven year who can conceive can also remain pregnant and give birth.



Careful with arguments like that. An old, diseased, dying oak tree who needs medications to survive, who is a burden on the forest and would serve it better by becoming compost, may someday be perceived less valuable than a healthy oak tree.

Regardless, a rapidly developing fetus cannot be compared to an acorn. At best, you can compare it to the sprouted acorn, which is a rapidly developing oak tree sapling.



The scriptures and the fetal homicide laws don't convince you a unborn human being is a person, but you find your irrational acorn versus oak tree comparison compelling?



Yes. It tells me that you don't understand the life is in the blood according to scripture, that you don't grasp the unborn child has it's own blood supply, and you apparently believe God doesn't give them life until they breath independently. You are implying all people are created in the same way Adam was created.

You have a reading problem. Read it again.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Notice the word nostrils.

Now tell me when personhood begins.

A fetus is a developing human, it is not a person until it breathes into its nostrils. The Mother is a person, the Mother is the one to concern yourself with.

I do not promote abortion, but I use my head when questions like the one in the OP are asked. It is OK to think for yourself without the church telling you what to do.

 

[keypurr]

It is sad to see people that want to murder their own grandchildren because their daughters were traumatized.

Agree, but it is an evil world. No one in their right mind wishes to kill a child, but the life of the Mother is more important as she is a full human being, the fetus is still developing. To abort or not to abort is the decision of the victim and her family, I will not condem them.

 

[Lighthouse]

You have a reading problem. Read it again.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Notice the word nostrils.

Now tell me when personhood begins.

A fetus is a developing human, it is not a person until it breathes into its nostrils. The Mother is a person, the Mother is the one to concern yourself with.

I do not promote abortion, but I use my head when questions like the one in the OP are asked. It is OK to think for yourself without the church telling you what to do.

:sozo:ADAM CANNOT BE USED AS AN ARGUMENT HERE, AS HE WAS NEVER IN THE WOMB, YOU MORON! HOW MANY TIMES DO YOU NEED TO BE TOLD THIS?!

 

[Christian Liberty]

Yeah, using Adam is a ridiculous argument.

One might as well say life begins at adulthood. Which would be absurd.

 

[genuineoriginal]

The Emotional Effects of Abortion

• 92% Emotional deadening (Reported either feeling less in touch with their emotions or feeling a “need to stifle their emotions”)
• 86% Increased tendency toward anger or rage (48% reported they became more violent when angered)
• 86% Had a fear of others learning of the abortion or a greater sense of fear for unknown reasons
• 82% Greater feelings of loneliness or isolation
• 75% Had less self-confidence
• 73% Sexual dysfunctions (Increased pain during intercourse, promiscuity, frigidity, or loss of pleasure)
• 63% Denial (Respondents were asked, “Was there a period of time when you would have denied the existence of any doubts or negative feelings about your abortion?” Of those responding yes, the average period of denial that they reported was 5.25 years.)
• 58% Suffered from insomnia or nightmares
• 57% Greater difficulty in maintaining or developing relationships
• 56% Suicidal feelings
• 53% Increased or began use of drugs or alcohol
• 39% Eating disorders which began after the abortion (binge eating, anorexia, or bulimia)
• 28% Attempted suicide

Does convincing/helping your daughter to abort your grandbabies really help her?
The side effects of abortion sound the same as the side effects for rape.

 

[Dena]

The Emotional Effects of Abortion

• 92% Emotional deadening (Reported either feeling less in touch with their emotions or feeling a “need to stifle their emotions”)
• 86% Increased tendency toward anger or rage (48% reported they became more violent when angered)
• 86% Had a fear of others learning of the abortion or a greater sense of fear for unknown reasons
• 82% Greater feelings of loneliness or isolation
• 75% Had less self-confidence
• 73% Sexual dysfunctions (Increased pain during intercourse, promiscuity, frigidity, or loss of pleasure)
• 63% Denial (Respondents were asked, “Was there a period of time when you would have denied the existence of any doubts or negative feelings about your abortion?” Of those responding yes, the average period of denial that they reported was 5.25 years.)
• 58% Suffered from insomnia or nightmares
• 57% Greater difficulty in maintaining or developing relationships
• 56% Suicidal feelings
• 53% Increased or began use of drugs or alcohol
• 39% Eating disorders which began after the abortion (binge eating, anorexia, or bulimia)
• 28% Attempted suicide

Were these studies done on the victims of violent rape who got pregnant as a result? How many of those would have been an issue anyway? We're not talking about women who don't want a baby. We're talking about a child who has been brutalized. It's a whole different story.

Does convincing/helping your daughter to abort your grandbabies really help her?

Nobody said anything about convincing.

 

[Doormat]

Pregnancy and birth are not punishment.

Have you ever been a pregnant woman carrying the child of your rapist?

Have you?

Do you have any clue of what emotions surround pregnancy and birth? The deep impact is has on a woman?

Yes. I have six children.

How many children do you have? You asked me, so I expect an answer from you, too.

Pregnancy and childbirth are a huge deal to us. Being forced to keep the product of a horrific act done to you by a brutal man is a punishment.

You're speaking for all women?

My wife would never abort the child if she was raped. My thirteen year old daughter said she would love the baby, not abort it; and she also said it's irrelevant how many many men raped her; her baggage might be a distrust of men, but not hatred of a baby.

Abortion requires informed consent. Do you believe an eleven year old can give informed consent?

I'd rather she not be put in that position but if it happens than I do think the child should get to make the decision on her own behalf.

Do you feel the same about allowing an 11 year old to refuse vaccinations or chemotherapy? And if you are a parent, would you force your 11 year old child to receive potentially life-saving medical treatments against her will?

 

[Doormat]

Well, apparently having babies is easy on the mother mentally and physically. You just go on about your business for 9 months and it magically exists your body. You don't go through a waterfall of emotions, sickness, mental anguish and then do the hardest work of your life to bring that baby from your womb to the outside world.

If you are not meaning to imply that pregnancy and birth are so traumatic for women in general that they all should be allowed to abort their unborn children to avoid that, it's hard to see the point of your sarcasm. I'm left wondering if you got your impression of pregnancy and birth from a personal but unusual experience, or from watching television. Consider that some women enjoy pregnancy and birth; they have minimal morning sickness and drug-free labor with little pain.

It just seems that people want to ignore the reality of pregnancy, birth and trauma of rape on the mind and body.

Rather, it seems that some people want to project their personal bad experience with pregnancy and labor onto all women while conflating that personal experience with the trauma of rape on the mind and body.

 

[lifeisgood]

When should abortion be legal?

For me never as I believe God is sovereign.

Not even when the life of the mother is at stake? Yes, not even then. There has been many cases where the life of the woman has been at stake and both, mom and baby, have survived the birth of the child.

IMO, the problem with everyone, including myself, is that not one person in the world wants to die, so, let the other person die (in this case the baby).

Many would have said she should have had an abortion and not go through all that she went through:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...-baby-died-womb-save-life-unborn-brother.html

 

[gcthomas]

Many would have said she should have had an abortion and not go through all that she went through:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...-baby-died-womb-save-life-unborn-brother.html

Would anyone suggest that, really? It seems unlikely to me, given the high survival chances for at least one baby.

And given that the operation had the death of at least one of the foetuses as the most likely outcome, it is like the life of one was sacrificed to save the other. That doesn't match your other comments.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Do you realize you are implying you would force an eleven year old to have an abortion? Since you have decided an eleven year old child's body is not developed enough for childbirth, you should also believe you would be endangering her life by not forcing her to have an abortion. Please reconsider that generally an eleven year old who had precocious puberty and conceived could carry that child to viability.

Where did i say force? Force happened when 20 animals beat tortured and raped her.

Where did i say i 'decided ' their medical issues, doctors do that. And they have said contrary to your opinion, sorry. Also in THIS case, the child was severely beaten and raped by 20 men, think that does no damage?.

You clearly have no clue what pregnancy does to a body, much less an 11 year olds body and then add a severely beaten traumatized body.

Where is your compassion for the child already here?

You would force pain, anguish and trauma on one already traumatized.

Your article doesn't detail their health or complications and it does not list those who had severe issues.

The child we are discussing was gang raped by 20 men, do you think that causes no physical damage to her body?

Lets force a severely beaten child, already too young to have a child herself to carry a baby that could cause severe complications if the mother is healthy, to carry one bruised beaten and most like with broken bones herself not to mention uterine damage and possibly stds to further threaten her life, not to mention her mental health. This is a health of the mother case.

Context people

Answer this. Would you do it to your daughter?

 

[bybee]

No, I said she would stand trial for murder.

She has already died.

 

[Doormat]

You have a reading problem. Read it again.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Notice the word nostrils.

Notice the phrase "became a living soul." You are implying a child in gestation is not living and doesn't have a soul until it breaths through his nostrils.

Now tell me when personhood begins.

It begins when it began for Jeremiah.

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.

A fetus is a developing human, it is not a person until it breathes into its nostrils.

An unborn child is the temple of God.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.

And if you argue that the unborn child is only the temple of God under construction, where does that leave you?

The Mother is a person, the Mother is the one to concern yourself with.

You're wrongfully assuming that I'm not concerned for the mother and child equally. It is obvious you are only concerned with the mother because you deny the child is a person.

I do not promote abortion, but I use my head when questions like the one in the OP are asked.

Well, it appears to me that you are promoting abortion for rape victims, if they desire to murder their babies. And while you may be using your head, your thinking is evidently clouded by the pharmaceutical drugs you take. Do you deny that your thinking is clouded sometimes by those drugs?

It is OK to think for yourself without the church telling you what to do.

Why do you think "the church" told me what to think? What church do you mean?

 

[Stripe]

Can someone who considers themselves pro-life argue that it should be legal for an 11-year-old rape victim to legally obtain an abortion?What is she was 13? 15? 18?What if an 11-year-old gets pregnant through consensual sex?Draw your arbitrary line in the sand and let us know your thoughts!When should abortion be legal?

The innocent baby should not be executed, the guilty rapist should be executed.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

The thing is this WoZ.
No matter how that baby got there I would never tell someone to kill their kid.

:up: That's right fool.

It's wrong to punish a child for the sin of the father.

 

[Stripe]

Context people

The context is, there's a baby and you're condoning his murder.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Answer this. Would you do it to your daughter?

Of course I would. I would never force my daughter into murdering her child.

Answer this. Would you murder your grandchild?

 

[1PeaceMaker]

Where did i say force? Force happened when 20 animals beat tortured and raped her.

As I've been lurking on this thread I couldn't help noticing that you are implying that an 11 year old is fit to make her own medical decisions or that it's not force if you love her and are doing it in her "best interest" - talking her into it or whatever other means necessary. But this is an 11 year old who could not have consensual sex. So how is she going to have a consensual homicide (abortion)? And how do you justify doing that when she could as easily carry the child to near term or viability?

Where did i say i 'decided ' their medical issues, doctors do that.

Well, then you are now implying that only the doctor can make her decisions, not you. Is her doctor going to let her have a high risk pregnancy so she can deliver early or is he going to force her to deal with the long term emotional trauma of the baby she carried being slaughtered? Obviously not even you get a say - so better hope she's not crying and begging you not to kill her baby....

Don't forget how much 11 year olds love babies and baby dolls. All things baby. Or how much time she'll have to think about what was done to her baby as she grows up.

And they have said contrary to your opinion, sorry. Also in THIS case, the child was severely beaten and raped by 20 men, think that does no damage?.

Are we talking about a rape survivor or someone who was had her pelvis crushed in a car crash?? Anyway, you've got 9 months to heal and there's always surgical delivery for those situations where vaginal birth is not possible.

You clearly have no clue what pregnancy does to a body, much less an 11 year olds body and then add a severely beaten traumatized body.

I have a clue. Six little clues I personally birthed into this world and one of them is a little girl - 11 years old.

Where is your compassion for the child already here?

Funny, I was going to ask you the same thing!

You would force pain, anguish and trauma on one already traumatized.

And what about the pain and invasiveness of an abortion?? Have you really thought about what it means that she's not old enough to consent to someone between her legs monkeying around with her life?? It's a very violating scenario and I've read stories from women who have survived just such treatment as children after rape. They said the abortion was actually worse. They saw that baby as the one bright spot in the whole experience until it was taken away - violently and against their wishes.

Answer this. Would you do it to your daughter?

We who do not abort do nothing. The forming of a child is God's work in the womb. We do not force or hinder what God designs.

The question works better on you. Would you "do it" to your daughter and grandchild? Because that child is forming under God's hands and you have to play God to intervene. You become the one DOING.

 

[Doormat]

Where did i say force?

As I wrote, it's implicit in your position.

Force happened when 20 animals beat tortured and raped her.

That's not what happened. Didn't you watch the video about the incident? The 11 year old girl was not beaten; the bloodied woman in the picture is not 11 and from a different rape story, as I pointed out in a previous post. The video doesn't claim 20 men raped an eleven year old, but that an incident that involved several young victims confronted by up to 20 "adult male" attackers ended in one reported rape of an 11 year old girl. There is no evidence that the 11 year old victim in that incident became pregnant.

Where did i say i 'decided ' their medical issues, doctors do that.

Answer this: If the doctor advises abortion but your 11 year old wants the baby, what would you do?

You clearly have no clue what pregnancy does to a body ...

I have six children. For four of those births I was the only attending midwife, so I actually know a little more than you imagine. That being said, I praise God who conceived, formed and delivered those children safely into our hands.

Where is your compassion for the child already here?

Forcing her to have an abortion wouldn't be compassion. Do you agree?

My daughters, the 11 and 13 years olds who understand the concept of rape, would want to have the baby. They love babies and can't imagine why someone would want to kill a baby because the conception occurred through rape.

You would force pain, anguish and trauma on one already traumatized.

Rather, I would prevent her from committing murder, even if it was made "legal" because it is in opposition to our faith. That she walks in the Spirit consistent with her beliefs is more important than trying to avoid a season of suffering that may not even happen.

Answer this. Would you do it to your daughter?

I would stop my daughter from having an abortion at any age.