1 JOHN ONLY ISRAEL CAN BE BORN AGAIN

[Lon]

Why do you feel that members of the body of Christ need to be "born again"?

First of all, to accentuate difference as well as see what 'must be the same,' let's delve into what 'born again' means. Jesus Christ Our Lord gives it Himself: John 3:6 "That which is [born of] flesh, is flesh. That which is [born/made/remade of] spirit is spirit." John 3:5-15 does indeed say "kingdom of God" HOWEVER, in 1 Corinthians 2:11,14, Paul says "MUST." "Must" for what? 1 Corinthians 2:10-16 Upon the premise, Paul tells them they are 'carnal' (merely thinking in the flesh). He spends chapters 3-14 discussing problems that have occurred specifically because they weren't understanding a need to be 'spiritual.'

In 2 Corinthians 5:17, Paul states clearly: If any man is in Christ, he is a 'new' creation. Does that sound anything like what Jesus said to Nicodemus? Yes it does because it is exact. Flesh and blood cannot understand God, both Paul and the Lord Jesus Christ concurred. In 1 Corinthians 15:10, the Apostle tells us emphatically: Flesh CANNOT inherit that which is Spirit thus EVERY believer, Jew then, gentile now, MUST become a New Creation which indeed captures the language of the Lord Jesus Christ "Born Again, means being spirit." John 3:6; 4:10;

Yes, I understand MAD separates terms, and this to a problem when it ousts fellow believers ESPECIALLY if that one is not a regenerate new creation. That person will argue against both Paul and the Lord Jesus Christ and MAD must be very careful not to either allow an unregenerate believe he/she is saved, nor allow for fellow MADists to usurp the Body by inclusion of MAD-unregenerate nor ostracizing true regenerate believers in Christ.

This, btw, is where Knight and I agree on theology, though we are opposed on a good many other doctrines. We may disagree that "born again" and "new creation" are the same term, but I do not at all believe we diverge regarding new creations.

 

[Lon]

There is no verse that says the body of Christ is Israel.

Romans 11:11-24 and Israel's Spiritual Inheritance what do you agree with? What is different?

What does Ephesians (from the article) prove? What does it disprove?

 

[God's Truth]

There is no verse that says the body of Christ is Israel.

There are many types of Jesus in the Bible.

Israel is God's firstborn and is a type of Jesus, as is the Jordan, and the Rock in the desert, and the bronze snake, circumcision, washings, special days, the sacrifice of lambs, etc.


Exodus 4:22 Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son,

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Galatians 6:16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule--to the Israel of God.

 

[Right Divider]

First of all, to accentuate difference as well as see what 'must be the same,' let's delve into what 'born again' means. Jesus Christ Our Lord gives it Himself: John 3:6 "That which is [born of] flesh, is flesh. That which is [born/made/remade of] spirit is spirit." John 3:5-15 does indeed say "kingdom of God" HOWEVER, in 1 Corinthians 2:11,14, Paul says "MUST." "Must" for what? 1 Corinthians 2:10-16 Upon the premise, Paul tells them they are 'carnal' (merely thinking in the flesh). He spends chapters 3-14 discussing problems that have occurred specifically because they weren't understanding a need to be 'spiritual.'

In 2 Corinthians 5:17, Paul states clearly: If any man is in Christ, he is a 'new' creation. Does that sound anything like what Jesus said to Nicodemus? Yes it does because it is exact. Flesh and blood cannot understand God, both Paul and the Lord Jesus Christ concurred. In 1 Corinthians 15:10, the Apostle tells us emphatically: Flesh CANNOT inherit that which is Spirit thus EVERY believer, Jew then, gentile now, MUST become a New Creation which indeed captures the language of the Lord Jesus Christ "Born Again, means being spirit." John 3:6; 4:10;

Yes, I understand MAD separates terms, and this to a problem when it ousts fellow believers ESPECIALLY if that one is not a regenerate new creation. That person will argue against both Paul and the Lord Jesus Christ and MAD must be very careful not to either allow an unregenerate believe he/she is saved, nor allow for fellow MADists to usurp the Body by inclusion of MAD-unregenerate nor ostracizing true regenerate believers in Christ.

This, btw, is where Knight and I agree on theology, though we are opposed on a good many other doctrines. We may disagree that "born again" and "new creation" are the same term, but I do not at all believe we diverge regarding new creations.

I don't believe that what Jesus was talking about in John 3 is doctrine for the body of Christ. This would (and DOES) create a great deal of confusion.

The fact that Jesus told Nicodemus (thee) that THEY (ye) must be born again is very important and almost completely overlooked.

 

[Right Divider]

There are many types of Jesus in the Bible.

Israel is God's firstborn and is a type of Jesus, as is the Jordan, and the Rock in the desert, and the bronze snake, circumcision, washings, special days, the sacrifice of lambs, etc.


Exodus 4:22 Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son,

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Galatians 6:16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule--to the Israel of God.

NONE of that supports the idea that the body of Christ is Israel.

The body of Christ is ONE NEW MAN.

Yes, that is a figure of speech, but it shows that the body of Christ is something NEW and not a mixed up "spiritual Israel". In the Bible, the term "spiritual Israel" refers to believing Jews.

 

[DougE]

Romans 11:11-24 and Israel's Spiritual Inheritance what do you agree with? What is different?

What does Ephesians (from the article) prove? What does it disprove?

Romans 11:17 is not talking of Gentiles in this dispensation who are in the body but rather, the Gentiles who believed the preaching of Jesus and the twelve. They believed Jesus was Messiah, Son of God and were part of the remnant of Israel who will go into the kingdom on earth when Christ comes.

In this dispensation Christ is forming the body, the one new man of reconciled Jew and Gentile.

For me anyway, I agree that it is not a determining factor if one does not hold to mid acts as to whether they are saved....as long as they are believing Paul's gospel of the death and resurrection of Christ providing our full and complete justification unto eternal life.

Also if one wants to say they are born again, fine, but it is just not Biblically accurate, thats all.Israel is the firstborn of God and had to be born of the spirit, not just the flesh to be the Israel of God.

 

[Right Divider]

Romans 11:17 is not talking of Gentiles in this dispensation who are in the body but rather, the Gentiles who believed the preaching of Jesus and the twelve. They believed Jesus was Messiah, Son of God and were part of the remnant of Israel who will go into the kingdom on earth when Christ comes.

In this dispensation Christ is forming the body, the one new man of reconciled Jew and Gentile.

For me anyway, I agree that it is not a determining factor if one does not hold to mid acts as to whether they are saved....as long as they are believing Paul's gospel of the death and resurrection of Christ providing our full and complete justification unto eternal life.

Also if one wants to say they are born again, fine, but it is just not Biblically accurate, thats all.Israel is the firstborn of God and had to be born of the spirit, not just the flesh to be the Israel of God.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Many (probably most) Christians have been trained to see all similarities as being identical and to ignore important differences and details regarding the nation of Israel and the body of Christ.

 

[God's Truth]

NONE of that supports the idea that the body of Christ is Israel.

Of course those scriptures prove what I said.
It is the Israel of God, the only Israel that matters.

The body of Christ is ONE NEW MAN.

And?

Yes, that is a figure of speech, but it shows that the body of Christ is something NEW and not a mixed up "spiritual Israel".

The one man of the two are the JEWS and the GENTILES.

In the Bible, the term "spiritual Israel" refers to believing Jews.

Don't you pay attention when others post?
I gave you scriptures from PAUL to the GENTILES that ALL the saved are the Israel of God.

 

[God's Truth]

Romans 11:17 is not talking of Gentiles in this dispensation who are in the body but rather, the Gentiles who believed the preaching of Jesus and the twelve. They believed Jesus was Messiah, Son of God and were part of the remnant of Israel who will go into the kingdom on earth when Christ comes.

In this dispensation Christ is forming the body, the one new man of reconciled Jew and Gentile.

For me anyway, I agree that it is not a determining factor if one does not hold to mid acts as to whether they are saved....as long as they are believing Paul's gospel of the death and resurrection of Christ providing our full and complete justification unto eternal life.

Also if one wants to say they are born again, fine, but it is just not Biblically accurate, thats all.Israel is the firstborn of God and had to be born of the spirit, not just the flesh to be the Israel of God.

So if a person does what Jesus says to do when he walked the earth then they are not born again and saved?

What Jesus says is for EVERYONE---first to the Jews, then to the Gentiles.

 

[God's Truth]

Jesus came to save the WORLD. He showed ALL the way.

Just those who were already saved by having faith in his Father could be saved firstly.

 

[God's Truth]

Galatians 6:16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule--to the Israel of God.



The Israel of God are those who come to Him in obedience to Christ.

 

[Right Divider]

Of course those scriptures prove what I said.
It is the Israel of God, the only Israel that matters.

The "Israel of God" refers to believing members of the nation of Israel. So simple that even a child can understand it.

And?

The body of Christ was something NEW and distinct.

The one man of the two are the JEWS and the GENTILES.

There are Jews and gentiles in God's plans for the earth.
There are Jews and gentiles in God's plans for heaven.

The nation of Israel is at the center of God's plans for the earth.
God's plans for heaven makes no distinction.

The two plans do not run concurrently.

Don't you pay attention when others post?

I do.

I gave you scriptures from PAUL to the GENTILES that ALL the saved are the Israel of God.

Nope... fake news... false interpretation (like you do with SO many scriptures).

 

[Right Divider]

Galatians 6:16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule--to the Israel of God.

The Israel of God are those who come to Him in obedience to Christ.

Gal 6:16 KJV And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.​

Quit using those bogus "translations" and get a real Bible. The verse says on them ... AND upon the Israel of God. TWO distinct groups.

 

[Lon]

I don't believe that what Jesus was talking about in John 3 is doctrine for the body of Christ. This would (and DOES) create a great deal of confusion.

The fact that Jesus told Nicodemus (thee) that THEY (ye) must be born again is very important and almost completely overlooked.

How much are you in agreement:

Romans 11:17 is not talking of Gentiles in this dispensation who are in the body but rather, the Gentiles who believed the preaching of Jesus and the twelve. They believed Jesus was Messiah, Son of God and were part of the remnant of Israel who will go into the kingdom on earth when Christ comes.

Not all MADists would agree this far. It'd likely be 'hyper-hyper.'

In this dispensation Christ is forming the body, the one new man of reconciled Jew and Gentile.

Agreed.

For me anyway, I agree that it is not a determining factor if one does not hold to mid acts as to whether they are saved....as long as they are believing Paul's gospel of the death and resurrection of Christ providing our full and complete justification unto eternal life.

:up:

Also if one wants to say they are born again, fine, but it is just not Biblically accurate, thats all.Israel is the firstborn of God and had to be born of the spirit, not just the flesh to be the Israel of God.

I think that's fair. It seems to me, tedious, but necessary often or always, to discuss how both are about being 'new creations, spiritual beings.' It may be helpful (for me) in thread here, to discuss the state of man's spirituality pre and post regeneration. I 'think' (at this time) we agree that man in his/her fallen state, is spiritually dead. Thanks. -Lon

 

[Ktoyou]

That's crazy.

:wazzup:
He does have that mixed up. There is lots of that on TOL

 

[God's Truth]

Gal 6:16 KJV And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.​

Quit using those bogus "translations" and get a real Bible. The verse says on them ... AND upon the Israel of God. TWO distinct groups.

Who are these Israeli people you think are separate from everyone else?
Do they get a dna test first? What and how much?
Why don't you believe God who says not of human descent?

 

[God's Truth]

The "Israel of God" refers to believing members of the nation of Israel. So simple that even a child can understand it.

God doesn’t care about people for being blood related to Abraham anymore, and earthly land means nothing.
All who struggle with God and men and overcome are Israel. All who have faith are related to Israel/Jacob.

The body of Christ was something NEW and distinct.

Jesus makes the two men---Jew and Gentile one man.

You make Jesus some kind of bumbler when he came and a weak savior who wasted his breath and time for some and not the whole world from all time. He came for ALL and what he taught and said is for ALL. The scriptures say it many times.

There are Jews and gentiles in God's plans for the earth.
There are Jews and gentiles in God's plans for heaven.

No such thing. Jesus makes the two men one man.

The nation of Israel is at the center of God's plans for the earth.
God's plans for heaven makes no distinction.

God plays no favorites. Israel are all who struggle with God and men and overcome through faith in Jesus.

The two plans do not run concurrently.

Bahahahahaha

You worry about what translation I use, when you should have let Jesus teach you rather than some false teachers who tickled your ears.

I do.

No you don’t. When you said I didn’t, you were showing me that it is you who doesn’t.

Nope... fake news... false interpretation (like you do with SO many scriptures).

You have not ever proven me wrong, ever.

 

[God's Truth]

Since Jesus came, God doesn't care anymore to whom one is blood related.

John 1:13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.



Israel is someone who struggles with God and men and over came.

Genesis 32:28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome.”

1 John 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.




We are related to Israel/Jacob when we have faith like Abraham.

Romans 4:11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.




Jesus makes the Jews and Gentiles one man.


The Jews and the Gentiles were two separate and different, and the two become one in Jesus:

Ephesians 2:15 by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and decrees. He did this to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace


The Jews were near to God and the Gentiles were far from God:

Ephesians 2:17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near.

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Ephesians 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,

Colossians 1:20 and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through the blood of His cross.

Colossians 3:11 Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, or free, but Christ is all and is in all.


There is no such thing what you preach.

 

[Right Divider]

Who are these Israeli people you think are separate from everyone else?

:duh: The Israel of God.

These are believers in the Messiah that are not part of the body of Christ as they already had their calling from God. God does not change a persons calling.

Do they get a dna test first? What and how much?

:juggle:

Why don't you believe God who says not of human descent?

:rotfl:

 

[Right Divider]

God doesn’t care about people for being blood related to Abraham anymore, and earthly land means nothing.
All who struggle with God and men and overcome are Israel. All who have faith are related to Israel/Jacob.

In the body of Christ there is no distinction. The body of Christ is temporary. God will restore the kingdom to Israel when the body of Christ is removed from the earth and God, once again, deals with Israel as His favored nation.

Jesus makes the two men---Jew and Gentile one man.

Yes, in the body of Christ. There are other things that God was doing and will do that you ignore.

You make Jesus some kind of bumbler when he came and a weak savior who wasted his breath and time for some and not the whole world from all time. He came for ALL and what he taught and said is for ALL. The scriptures say it many times.

You CONTINUE to LIE about what I say.

No such thing. Jesus makes the two men one man.

:juggle:

God plays no favorites.

God separated Israel from the nations. Is what not playing favorites in some way?

Israel are all who struggle with God and men and overcome through faith in Jesus.

Fairy tale.

Bahahahahaha

You worry about what translation I use, when you should have let Jesus teach you rather than some false teachers who tickled your ears.

You have a lot of hot air.

No you don’t. When you said I didn’t, you were showing me that it is you who doesn’t.
:nono:

You have not ever proven me wrong, ever.

You're wrong 90% of the time. That's easy for all to see.