1 JOHN ONLY ISRAEL CAN BE BORN AGAIN

[God's Truth]

Now through faith and not blood relations to Abraham---but through the shed blood of Jesus---we ARE NOW related to Abraham.

That is how Abraham is father to many nations.

Those blood related to Abraham who reject Jesus---they are cut off and bound to the place of disobedient Gentiles.

 

[God's Truth]

Genesis 17:4 "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations.

Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Acts 13:32
And now we proclaim to you the good news: What God promised our fathers

Romans 4:12
And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised, but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

Romans 9:8
So it is not the children of the flesh who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as offspring.

Galatians 3:16
The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, "and to seeds," meaning many, but "and to your seed," meaning One, who is Christ.

Galatians 3:29
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.

Hebrews 11:7
By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in godly fear built an ark to save his family. By faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

 

[Right Divider]

The Israelites were chosen because they were blood related to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Those blood related to Abraham, through Isaac, and Jacob. THOSE are the people God promised concerning THEIR DESCENDANTS.

They had to be in a covenant with God.

So you still cannot understand that not all of Abraham's descendants are Jews? :dizzy:

 

[Right Divider]

Now through faith and not blood relations to Abraham---but through the shed blood of Jesus---we ARE NOW related to Abraham.

That is how Abraham is father to many nations.

No, it is NOT. The body of Christ is NOT a nation in ANY way.

Abraham had many descendants that are not Jews.

Jacob's TWIN brother is NOT a Jew!

Those blood related to Abraham who reject Jesus---they are cut off and bound to the place of disobedient Gentiles.

:juggle:

 

[God's Truth]

No, it is NOT. The body of Christ is NOT a nation in ANY way.

The people who are saved are from many nations.

Abraham had many descendants that are not Jews.

Jacob's TWIN brother is NOT a Jew!

It isn't through Esau. It is through Jacob.

:juggle:

Luke 19:42 and said, "If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace--but now it is hidden from your eyes.

Luke 8:10 He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, "'though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.'

John 12:40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."

Romans 11:8 as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day."

Matthew 13:14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

Mark 4:12 so that, "'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"

Mark 8:17 And Jesus, aware of this, said to them, "Why do you discuss the fact that you have no bread? Do you not yet see or understand? Do you have a hardened heart? 18"HAVING EYES, DO YOU NOT SEE? AND HAVING EARS, DO YOU NOT HEAR? And do you not remember,

Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
ALL are bound to the same place.


Romans 3:9
What then? Are we any better? Not at all. For we have already made the charge that Jews and Greeks alike are all under sin.

Romans 5:19
For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Romans 11:31
so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you.

Galatians 3:22
But the Scripture pronounces all things confined by sin, so that by faith in Jesus Christ the promise might be given to those who believe.

Galatians 3:23
Before this faith came, we were held in custody under the Law, locked up until faith should be revealed.


Acts 2:36 Therefore let all Israel know with certainty that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ!” 37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and asked Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 11:23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


Cont.

 

[God's Truth]

John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

John 8:38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence and you are doing what you have heard from your father


John 8:41 You are doing the works of your own father." "We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself."

John 8:55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word.

1 John 2:4 Whoever says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.

1 John 3:8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.

1 John 3:10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God's child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

1 John 3:15 Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

Revelation 3:9 I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars--I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

 

[Right Divider]

The people who are saved are from many nations.

:duh:

It isn't through Esau. It is through Jacob.

Esau is a BLOOD RELATED descendant of Abraham that is NOT a Jew.

 

[God's Truth]

:duh:

You are the one who said the saved aren't nations.

Esau is a BLOOD RELATED descendant of Abraham that is NOT a Jew.

Esau is not a Jew? Prove it with scripture he is a Gentile. Prove this has anything to do with Esau.

Why are you bringing up Esau? Trying to derail the point again?

How many times do you have to be told through Abraham, Isaac, and JACOB?

 

[Right Divider]

You are the one who said the saved aren't nations.

They are from among the nations. The body of Christ is not a nation.

Esau is not a Jew? Prove it with scripture he is a Gentile. Prove this has anything to do with Esau.

Prove with scripture that Esau is a Jew. Do you not know how the Bible defines a Jew?

Why are you bringing up Esau? Trying to derail the point again?

Just continuing to point out your ignorance on Biblical matters.

How many times do you have to be told through Abraham, Isaac, and JACOB?

I never said otherwise. It is YOU that does not have a clue as to who is who.

No, the blood related to Abraham are not called 'Gentiles'.

You have NO IDEA what Jew and Gentile mean.

• Abraham was not a Jew.
• Isaac was not a Jew.
• Esau was not a Jew.

And YET Isaac and Esau were BLOOD RELATED to Abraham. Isaac is Abraham's SON and he is NOT a Jew.

 

[God's Truth]

They are from among the nations. The body of Christ is not a nation.

Show where I said Jesus’ body is called a nation.

I explained to you that all nations of people are the saved that are defendants of Abraham byfaith.

You went against me for saying that.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

John 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Romans 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Prove with scripture that Esau is a Jew. Do you not know how the Bible defines a Jew?

Why do you keep trying to discombobulate the point I was making? Surely it is because you are wrong about Abraham and how he is a father of many nations meaning the saved of all nations who are in Christ. Why keep bringing up Esau? Maybe you are not derailing on purpose. It could be that you don’t know what you are doing and are just confused? How many times have a told you that the Jews are the blood related to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? Esau is the brother of Jacob. So I did not even include Esau in what I said about being a Jew. It is through Jacob, not Esau.

Just continuing to point out your ignorance on Biblical matters.

If if is my ignorance of the Bible, then why do you keep bringing up Esau?

I never said otherwise. It is YOU that does not have a clue as to who is who.


You have NO IDEA what Jew and Gentile mean.

• Abraham was not a Jew.
• Isaac was not a Jew.
• Esau was not a Jew.

And YET Isaac and Esau were BLOOD RELATED to Abraham. Isaac is Abraham's SON and he is NOT a Jew.

Good grief. Here it is again: I said the JEWS are those BLOOD related to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; and obey the old law.

 

[Shasta]

Jesus was talking to an Israelite about Israelite's in John. Why would you think something else?

I would point out that Jesus spoke to Nicodemus (thee) about THEM (ye) [referring to John 3:7].

A. For one thing, there is no direct INTERNAL evidence for the claim that I John was written to Jews ONLY. This is another example the fact that, when faced with a lack of evidence, you import your own presuppositions into the text.

B. There is no THEMATIC evidence for this either. The teachings John is opposing are not those of the Judaizers Paul dealt with. For example, he says nothing about such major Jewish practices as circumcision, keeping festivals and eating kosher which were issues earlier in the century. Internal evidence suggests that John is speaking against the errors of a group of (proto-) Gnostic docetists who had invaded the Church. In line with neo-Platonism these people opposed Christ's incarnation in principle because of their dualistic belief that matter was evil. This was an issue of the latter part of the First Century when John was written.

C. According to the EXTERNAL evidence taken from the accounts of early Ante-Nicene Christians, John had by that time moved to Ephesus which was a mixed congregation of Jews and Gentiles. In fact, by the end of the First Century there would have been even more Gentiles in Ephesus than when Paul first evangelized it. John's influence throughout the entire region is shown by the fact that he delivered the Revelation to all seven of the Churches of Asia Minor. Most of those Churches consisted of primarily Gentiles.

D. By confining Jesus teachings to whatever specific person He happened to be speaking to you deny that He was the Light of the WORLD and the Lamb who takes away the sin of the WORLD. Instead, He becomes only the Light of the Jews and the Lamb who takes away the sin of the Jews. This tells me that for all the regard you profess to have for Paul you still have not understood that the mystery the Apostle's proclaimed was that God had planned all along to include the Gentiles in His plan of redemption

 

[Right Divider]

A. For one thing, there is no direct INTERNAL evidence for the claim that I John was written to Jews ONLY. This is another example the fact that, when faced with a lack of evidence, you import your own presuppositions into the text.

Of course there is, but you don't want to believe because that idea does not support your story.

John is ONE of the TWELVE apostles that WILL sit on twelve thrones judging the TWELVE tribes of ISRAEL.

C. According to the EXTERNAL evidence taken from the accounts of early Ante-Nicene Christians, John had by that time moved to Ephesus which was a mixed congregation of Jews and Gentiles. In fact, by the end of the First Century there would have been even more Gentiles in Ephesus than when Paul first evangelized it. John's influence throughout the entire region is shown by the fact that he delivered the Revelation to all seven of the Churches of Asia Minor. Most of those Churches consisted of primarily Gentiles.

John was one of the apostles that agreed to keep their ministry to the circumcision separate from Paul's ministry to the gentiles.

Gal 2:6-9 KJV But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person: ) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me: (7) But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; (8) (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles: ) (9) And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.​

That is a glaring distinction from the idea that it's all the same immediately after the cross.

D. By confining Jesus teachings to whatever specific person He happened to be speaking to you deny that He was the Light of the WORLD and the Lamb who takes away the sin of the WORLD. Instead, He becomes only the Light of the Jews and the Lamb who takes away the sin of the Jews. This tells me that for all the regard you profess to have for Paul you still have not understood that the mystery the Apostle's proclaimed was that God had planned all along to include the Gentiles in His plan of redemption

There are many times when Jesus Himself makes it clear the He is teaching something divisional. He is the Light of the WORLD, but you are taking that term completely out of the context of the various passages that show distinction.

Gentiles could always be redeemed per joining with Israel and worshiping per their God given religion.

That is something quite different from the NEITHER Jew NOR Greek in the body of Christ.

 

[Bright Raven]

[h=1]John 3:16 New American Standard Bible (NASB)[/h]
¹⁶ “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

 

[Shasta]

[Right Divider;n2735824]
Of course there is, but you don't want to believe because that idea does not support your story.

I did not post a gratuitous assertion of my beliefs I presented evidence, both internal and external, to support my ideas.

John is ONE of the TWELVE apostles that WILL sit on twelve thrones judging the TWELVE tribes of ISRAEL.

John will indeed become a regent in the Kingdom because he, like the Twelve, gave up everything in order to preach the gospel of salvation to his people even when he and the others were persecuted for doing so. However, nothing in this verse suggests that John had preached a different gospel than Paul.

John was one of the apostles that agreed to keep their ministry to the circumcision separate from Paul's ministry to the gentiles.

Gal 2:6-9 KJV But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person: ) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me: (7) But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; (8) (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles: ) (9) And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.[/INDENT]

The ASSUMPTION you have made is that their verbal agreement was rigidly binding and permanent like some kind of contract in perpetuity. There is insufficient evidence in the text to support this. In practice, the Apostles did not rigidly adhere to this arrangement. For instance, even after Paul’s call to the Gentiles was officially recognized, he continued to reach out to Jews, (at least until Acts 17:1-7). Also Peter apparently ministered in the Church at Corinth, a mixed congregation of Jews and Gentiles (1 Corinthians 1:12).

Now let us look at Galatians 2:6-9. When Paul uses the phrases 'THE GOSPEL OF THE CIRCUMCISION and THE GOSPEL OF THE UNCIRCUMCISION The word "OF" signifies that the following nouns (circumcision or uncircumcision) are in the GENITIVE case. According to Greek professor Daniel Wallace, Galatians 2:6-9 is a “clear example” of what he calls the “GENITIVE OF DESTINATION (a.k.a. DIRECTION)”
(“Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics” page 100-101)
In other words, the gospel of the CIRCUMCISION and UNCIRCUMCISION indicate the direction and destination of their Apostolic missions. One group (the Twelve) would take THE gospel TO the Jews while Paul and his group would take THE gospel TO the Gentiles. Paul was NOT saying that the CONTENT of their messages was different. That they were discussing two MISSIONS (to different populations) rather than two GOSPELS is clear in Galatians 2:7:

But on the contrary, seeing that I had been entrusted with the gospel TO the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been TO the circumcised Notice that, in the original text, Paul uses the word “gospel” ONLY ONCE showing that what he had in mind was ONE gospel sent out to two populations and NOT two gospels.

Greek scholar A. T. Robertson is in agreement with Wallace on this point. Robertson says this about Galatians 2:6-9:
"This clear-cut agreement between the leaders denotes a distinction of SPHERE, and not a difference of TYPE"
(https://www.biblestudytools.com/comm...tians-2-7.html)

That is a glaring distinction from the idea that it's all the same immediately after the cross.

God provided no other way of salvation except through faith in Christ and what He did on the cross. This same message saves both Jews and Gentiles alike. That is what Peter and Paul preached.

11 It is just as the Scripture says: “Anyone who believes in Him will never be put to shame.” 12 For THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JEW AND GREEK:ThesameLordis Lord of all,and gives richlytoallwhocallon Him, 13 for, “EVERYONE who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
(Romans 10:11-12)

8 And God, who knows the heart, showed His approval [of saved Gentiles] by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as He did to us. 9 HE MADE NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN US AND THEM, for He cleansed their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you test God by placing on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?
(Acts 15:8-10)

By contrast, you seem intent on preserving some (undisclosed) aspects of Jewish practices and customs in order to lay this heavy yoke back on the necks of Jewish believers (and, perhaps, on that of Gentile Christians who convert to Judaism).

There are many time when Jesus Himself makes it clear the He is teaching something divisional. He is the Light of the WORLD, but you are taking that term completely out of the context of the various passages that show distinction.

In John 8:12, Jesus does NOT say “I am the light of the WORLD OF JEWISH PEOPLE. He says “I am the light of the WORLD.” “WORLD” means everyone. The prophecies that foretold the coming of the “Great Light” that would visit the Jewish nation (e.g., Isaiah 9:2 in Matthew 4:16) also say that Messiah would be a “LIGHT to the NATIONS” (Isaiah 49:6) The word nations is goyim which means Gentiles.

Gentiles could always be redeemed per joining with Israel and worshiping per their God given religion.

No one is “redeemed” by “joining with Israel” and worshiping God through Jewish practices. This was the essence of the circumcision controversy in the book of Acts. The Judaizers believed that Christians must convert and become Jews. Paul overturned this error long ago. He, along with Peter and the Twelve knew that mankind is only REDEEMED by the blood of the Lamb of God.

“…For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God BY YOUR BLOOD Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation”
(Revelation 5:9)

That is something quite different from the NEITHER Jew NOR Greek in the body of Christ.

You sound more and more like a Judaizer.

 

[Right Divider]

John will indeed become a regent in the Kingdom because he, like the Twelve, gave up everything in order to preach the gospel of salvation to his people even when he and the others were persecuted for doing so.

There was a reason that they "sold that they had" as Jesus instructed them to. During the great tribulation only those with the mark of the beast would be allowed to buy and sell. They would need to endure to the end to be saved and enter the kingdom.

The prayer where Jesus taught them to pray for their daily bread is directly related to their lack of ability to buy and sell during the great tribulation. God will miraculously feed them much the same way that He did in the desert during their 40 years there.

However, nothing in this verse suggests that John had preached a different gospel than Paul.

The gospel of the grace of God does not require selling all as we are not in the same circumstances. We will be removed from the earth when God determines that it's time to continue with His plans for the kingdom on earth.

The ASSUMPTION you have made is that their verbal agreement was rigidly binding and permanent like some kind of contract in perpetuity.

Where did I say any such thing? You are trying to put words in my mouth. That's dishonest.

Their agreement was confirmed with hand shakes and was documented in scripture.

My point was that God did NOT introduce Paul's gospel at the cross, but years later. God continued to give Israel every opportunity to repent and believe the gospel of the kingdom (and, of course, to act accordingly).

 

[Shasta]

[Right Divider;n2736151]
There was a reason that they "sold that they had" as Jesus instructed them to. During the great tribulation only those with the mark of the beast would be allowed to buy and sell. They would need to endure to the end to be saved and enter the kingdom.

Nothing in the text connects the way Christ called certain people with end time events. Jesus never made such a connection and neither did the Apostles. Neither does Paul, for that matter. This idea is entirely from your imagination.

The prayer where Jesus taught them to pray for their daily bread is directly related to their lack of ability to buy and sell during the great tribulation. God will miraculously feed them much the same way that He did in the desert during their 40 years there.

The disciples did not ask Jesus to teach them how to pray DURING THE TRIBULATION. They simply asked Him to teach them to pray in the here and now. Rather than interpret what the Word says in context you import ideas from end times events which the passage never alludes to.

The gospel of the grace of God does not require selling all as we are not in the same circumstances. We will be removed from the earth when God determines that it's time to continue with His plans for the kingdom on earth.

1. We will never be removed from the earth until we are caught up to meet Him at the GATHERING of the harvest.

2. Jesus told the rich young ruler:
“If YOU want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come,follow Me.” (Matthew 19:22)

However, EVERYONE did not have this call. When the man who had been possessed ASKED to follow Him in this way Jesus REFUSED.
¹⁸ As Jesus was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed begged to go with him. ¹⁹ Jesus did not let him, but said, “Go home to your own people and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and how he has had mercy on you.” (Mark 5:18-19)

You have no more grounds to make THIS about the Tribulation than you did Matthew 19:22.

If He had wanted to reveal that this would be the case during the Tribulation He would have alluded to that event but, in fact, HE DID NOT.

Where did I say any such thing? You are trying to put words in my mouth. That's dishonest. Their agreement was confirmed with hand shakes and was documented in scripture.

I said your ASSUMPTION was that the agreement among the Apostles (to take the gospel to two groups - the Jews and the Gentiles) was rigid and permanent. That is certainly how you present it. However, the fact that it was not a rigid agreement is shown by the fact that Paul continued preaching to Jews and Peter preached to both Jews and Gentiles at Corinth. According to Church history, long after the other Apostles had died John moved to Asia Minor and became a major influence there, raising up a new generation of leaders. Multitudes of that population were Greeks. Having read the writings of the post-Apostolic leaders in the Church whose lives overlapped that of Paul and John I found no mention whatsoever for your dual-gospel hypothesis.

My point was that God did NOT introduce Paul's gospel at the cross, but years later. God continued to give Israel every opportunity to repent and believe the gospel of the kingdom (and, of course, to act accordingly).

Paul's gospel WAS the CROSS.

18 For the MESSAGE OF THE CROSS is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the POWER OF GOD. 19 For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”
22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
(1 Corinthians 1:20-22)

I do not know what you THINK Peter and the others preached but they understood all the prophecies concerning Christ and they preached salvation through FAITH and FORGIVENESS of sin by the shed blood of Christ on the cross.

8 And God, who knows the heart, showed His approval [of saved Gentiles] by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as He did to us. 9 HE MADE NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN US AND THEM,for He cleansed their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you test God by placing on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?
(Acts 15:8-10)

 

[Right Divider]

Nothing in the text connects the way Christ called certain people with end time events. Jesus never made such a connection and neither did the Apostles. Neither does Paul, for that matter. This idea is entirely from your imagination.

And here I thought that you knew your Bible.

The disciples did not ask Jesus to teach them how to pray DURING THE TRIBULATION. They simply asked Him to teach them to pray in the here and now. Rather than interpret what the Word says in context you import ideas from end times events which the passage never alludes to.

Sorry, but you're using fallacious logic. Just because they did not ask about it does not mean that it was not about it (directly or indirectly).

Do you not know that the tribulation was just about to start at that time?

1. We will never be removed from the earth until we are caught up to meet Him at the GATHERING of the harvest.

So now you're confusing and conflating the catching away of the body of Christ and the gathering of the remnant of Israel from the "four winds"? That figures.

 

[Shasta]

[Right Divider;n2736949]
And here I thought that you knew your Bible.

Where does Jesus say His call to certain individuals to leave their homes to be His disciples directly refers to what will happen in the end times? You cannot read future events into the events of passage unless Jesus or a gospel writer alludes to it. That is bad hermeneutics. Of course, if you do not want to offer any scriptures to prove your own point that is your prerogative. You will not be excused from your burden of proof with a brief ad hominem comment.

Sorry, but you're using fallacious logic. Just because they did not ask about it does not mean that it was not about it (directly or indirectly).

Your post itself is an example of fallacious logic, the kind called an ARGUMENT FROM SILENCE. Even though Jesus said absolutely NOTHING about the Lord's Prayer being for the Tribulation period, you, despite a TOTAL LACK OF VERBAL EVIDENCE assert that it was. Well, this is a gross example of EISEGESIS in which "workmen" who need very much to be ashamed of their craft, insert their own ideas into a text. There was nothing cryptic about the disciple's request or about Jesus' response. They asked Jesus to teach them how to pray and He did. Your statement that it MIGHT have been about the Tribulation, albeit, INDIRECTLY is an admission of the lack of confirmatory information IN THE PASSAGE.

Do you not know that the tribulation was just about to start at that time?

They would experience tribulation as would succeeding generations but none of those events could be called the worst times there ever had been or ever would be. Then you have to allegorize all the events in Revelation. The early Anti-Nicene Christians going back to the generation that followed John believed the Great Tribulation would occur at the end, immediately before the visible bodily Return of Christ.

So now you're confusing and conflating the catching away of the body of Christ and the gathering of the remnant of Israel from the "four winds"? That figures.

It is the simplest, most straight-forward way to interpret the eschatalogical passages. Historically, no one taught a pre-Tribulation rapture until Darby and the Plymouth Brethren introduced it in the 1800s. By contrast early ante-Nicene Christians believed that believers would endure the Tribulation.

That figures

I have noticed that while you easily take offense at others, calling people who disagree with you hypocrites, false witnesses and suggesting that you are more intelligent than they, you often punctuate your own comments with insults and contempt. Try meditating on this:

24 And a servant of the Lord must not be quarrelsome, but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, and forbearing. 25 He must gently reprove those who oppose him, in the hope that God may grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth. 26 Then they will come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, who has taken them captive to his will.
(2 Timothy 2:24-26)

I do not know what you think this "JEWISH GOSPEL" was but Peter (who you would assume was practicing it) said:

…9 He [God] made NO DISTINCTION between us and them, for He CLEANSED their hearts BY FAITH. 10 Now then,why do you test God by placing on the necks of the disciples a YOKE that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?11 ON THE CONTRARY, we believe it is through the GRACE of the Lord Jesus that we are SAVED, JUST AS THEY ARE.”
(Acts 15:9-10)

The phrase ON THE CONTRARY indicates that Peter is preaching a message that is contrary to that of Judaism. Salvation, he says is granted to both Jews and Gentiles by grace without putting on the yoke of the Law. In fact, after God taught Him a few things, Peter himself NO LONGER LIVED AS A JEW (Galatians 2:15). Well, if he no longer practiced Jewish customs how could he be said to believe in a special Jewish gospel. Trying to find this elusive Jewish Gospel is like chasing snipes.

 

[Wick Stick]

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

In all of the above verses John is addressing those who are "born of God".

Whosoever is born of God, does not commit sin, loves his brother, overcomes the world, keeps himself and that wicked one does not touch him.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Peter distinguishes being born again, as not being born of the corruptible seed of the flesh, the natural physical descent, but rather, the incorruptible word of God.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Israel had to believe on the name of Jesus to be born of God, not just born physically an Israelite.

Matthew 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Israel would not enter into the Davidic kingdom on earth, and reign with Christ, by being born children of Abraham in the flesh; Israel had to be born again by the Spirit of God (John 3:5-8).

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

It is the nation of Israel that must be born again. It is not accurate to say members of the body of Christ, in this dispensation, are born again; in all of Paul's epistles being born again is never applied to members of the body of Christ.

The whole point of being born a second time is to change your parents. It's an adoption ceremony. If one has been adopted by God, one has become part of Israel.

As for the Jews, they are an outcropping from The Root, which makes them part of Israel. If they should remove themselves from The Root, they will cease to be part of Israel. If they stay and thrive, more's the better.

Jarrod

 

[DougE]

The whole point of being born a second time is to change your parents. It's an adoption ceremony. If one has been adopted by God, one has become part of Israel.

As for the Jews, they are an outcropping from The Root, which makes them part of Israel. If they should remove themselves from The Root, they will cease to be part of Israel. If they stay and thrive, more's the better.

Jarrod

There is no verse that says the body of Christ is Israel.