Works, Salvation, Merit

[God's Truth]

"...apart from me you can do nothing." John 15:5
We've had this debate before... God's truth has the last word.

Why don't you believe Jesus?

Did you not read all the scriptures I gave where Jesus says if?

Apart from Jesus we can do nothing does not mean we cannot obey until after we are saved.


Acts 13:26 "Fellow children of Abraham and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent.

 

[God's Truth]

In so far as it is applicable I certainly support following the Law, though I am imperfect and have been known to sin. Of course, there are a couple important points when speaking of the Law and its fulfillment. First and foremost: Paul and the early church maintained a distinction between God's Law and the Mosaic Law and the traditions of men. God's Law, or the Spirit of the Law, is what is important. Under the New Covenant, God's Law is written on our very hearts. By means of study of the Mosaic Law and the Prophets, along with prayer and a sincere heart for God and truth, one may come to know God's Law.

Secondly: the Mosaic Law was given to the Jews, it is the Old Covenant. While this Covenant has not gone away - the Jewish People are still God's People, he is still their God, as per their covenant - we Gentiles are not required or expected to adopt it as such. No physical circumcision required, but rather circumcision of the heart. We are to follow God's Law, the Spirit of the Law, but we are not required to follow the letter of the Law. Hence Paul teaches that we are Spiritual Jews, part of Spiritual Israel.

Thirdly: The New Covenant did not toss out the Old, but the Old still exists alongside the New - at least for the time being. When the judgement is complete and the heavens and earth are remade, then I believe the Old Testament will be gone.

I hope you do not read what I am about to post as being harsh or rude in anyway.

The Jews who have not come to God through Jesus are cut off from God.

No Jew is keeping the old covenant. There are no more Jews who are following the old covenant, it is impossible to do. The only blood that atones for sins is the blood of the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ.

God does not require circumcision of the flesh anymore to be in a covenant with Him. He does not require the observance of special days, and a special diet.

Those things were teaching tools, a shadow of Jesus Christ. Jesus came and fulfilled all those things.

We no longer get circumcised in the flesh. We are to get circumcised in the heart.

We no longer have to observe special days, for we are to observe Jesus all day every day.

We do not use the blood of animals, for Jesus' blood cleans us once and for all.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

Why don't you believe Jesus?

Did you not read all the scriptures I gave where Jesus says if?

Apart from Jesus we can do nothing does not mean we cannot obey until after we are saved.


Acts 13:26 "Fellow children of Abraham and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent.

So are you pressing on to perfection, from Glory to Glory by the Spirit and your sowing to please Him; working out your salvation in fear and trembling, perfecting holiness in the fear of God? Are you perfected? Are you a slave to God or sin?

We need him do what He asks. You are powerless to do good without Him. Obeying the law is impossible with the Spirit's agape love in us allowing to fulfill the law of love.

Does your pride insist that you have power that no-one else has? God gives us power for Godliness at our surrender to Him. You can do no good apart from Him. Without Him we only puff up our ego and pride.

 

[Right Divider]

That's untrue. Jesus came to proclaim the truth to everyone.

Not everything that Jesus said was for everyone.

If you can't understand that, you can't understand anything.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Not everything that Jesus said was for everyone.

If you can't understand that, you can't understand anything.

Yep

 

[Right Divider]

Who were the target audiences then? I understand how some things fit better in cultural mindsets, but we can take valuable wisdom from even things directed to another group of people.

You have to read the whole Bible to see what it all means.

Jesus said many things that were specifically for the twelve tribes of Israel. We can certainly learn many things from what He said, but if we confused believe that every instruction is for us today, then we will foolishly attempt to follow instructions that are NOT for us and therefore cannot be actually followed.

Israel was given a special role which they have currently failed to accept. But the Bible says that this will change some day. That's what Romans 11 is talking about when Paul says:

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? ​

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

You have to read the whole Bible to see that it all means.

Jesus said many things that were specifically for the twelve tribes of Israel. We can certainly learn many things from what He said, but if we confused believe that every instruction is for us today, then we will foolishly attempt to follow instructions that are NOT for us and therefore cannot be actually followed.

Israel was given a special role which they have currently failed to accept. But the Bible says that this will change some day. That's what Romans 11 is talking about when Paul says:

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? ​

Good post RD

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

Not everything that Jesus said was for everyone.

If you can't understand that, you can't understand anything.

Jesus is clearly talking to His disciples in John 15 for this reason. "I said all of these things to you to keep you from falling away." John 16:1

What a clever lie... That doesn't apply to you... I wonder who could have come with that? Wake up!

Do you really want to hear Jesus say, "Why didn't you teach them to remain in me, bearing fruit for me, like I said?"

 

[Right Divider]

Jesus is clearly talking to His disciples in John 15 for this reason. "I said all of these things to you to keep you from falling away." John 16:1

What a clever lie... That doesn't apply to you... I wonder who could have come with that? Wake up!

Do you really want to hear Jesus say, "Why didn't you teach them to remain in me, bearing fruit for me, like I said?"

Jamie, you are such a religious fanatic that you can't even see straight.

Some of things that Jesus taught while on earth were general in nature and some were not. But you're too steeped in your religion to be able to make sense of that. Too bad for you.

 

[heir]

A false-dilemma is usually presented to us whenever we speak of the relationship of works to salvation: either Christ's sacrifice is sufficient and our sins have been paid for without us having to do anything, or else Christ's sacrifice was insufficient and one must earn their salvation. Faith-only folks defend the first and criticize anything else as if it were the second - as if people were trying to earn their way into heaven. They do not consider the other option: that while we do not earn salvation, that we do not earn forgiveness, there are requirements to God's gifts.

Let us consider the gift of forgiveness. In a parable of a king settling his accounts (Matthew 18:21-35) Jesus speaks of a man who owed 10,000 talents but was unable to pay the debt. He is forgiven this debt by the king. However, this same man is owed 100 denarii by another who cannot pay him back. Rather than show him the same mercy he has recieved, he has the other man put in prison until he can pay back his debt. Upon hearing of this, the king revokes his forgiveness from the first man and has him thrown in prison until he can pay back all of his debts.

There are two important points to this story. First it makes clear that there is at least one requirement to the gift of forgiveness: you must forgive others their sins when they repent. If you don't, then neither will God forgive you. Secondly, the story points out the vast difference in debt that the first man had to the king versus what the first man was owed by another. 10,000 talents vs 100 denarii. So one cannot say if the first man had forgiven the second that that he thereby earned his own forgiveness.

And this is the key to understanding why it can be said that there are requirements to salvation, but that we do not earn salvation. God's blessings and promises to us are so much greater than what is required of us. God forgives us all of our sins when we repent, adopts us as his sons and daughters, and makes us co-heirs with Christ of the Kingdom. He asks us to forgive those who repent. Christ gave his life so to reconcile us to God and to give us eternal life. We are asked to carry our cross daily and follow him, to use our lives to do God's will.

God's gifts have requirements - but so great is the gift in comparison to the requirements that we cannot even begin to say that we have somehow earned it.

You cannot work to be saved (Romans 4:4-5 KJV, Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV) and are forgiven as the debt was forgiven (Romans 6:23 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, 2 Corinthians 5:19-21 KJV, Colossians 2:11-13 KJV) whether or not you believe it. What you need is the righteousness of God upon you (Romans 3:21-22 KJV and you get it by trusting the Lord believing the gospel of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV), the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth (Romans 1:16 KJV) as that is where the righteousness of God is revealed (Romans 1:17 KJV).

 

[heir]

Jesus teaches in that parable that you are required to forgive others or else you will not be forgiven. So there is no debate that there are requirements.

He never taught that to us, but to those He was sent, but unto (Matthew 15:24 KJV). That's not our pattern for forgiveness either. We forgive one another even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven us!

Ephesians 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

 

[heir]

The forgiveness taught here is not about salvation but about our daily walk.

Nope. It means exactly what it says, it just wasn't said to us.

 

[heir]

God is the Father of all - that doesn't mean people don't go to hell. If you are not forgiven then you must pay for your own sins - which means death. If you are not forgiven then there is no salvation.

People who will perish will not because they are not forgiven, but because they were and did not receive the love of the truth that they could be saved!

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

 

[heir]

Beleif is important because it guides your actions. Belief without action is pointless, it is dead, and it cannot save you - as James says. Jesus says this:

James wasn't talking to you either!


James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Our salvation is not based upon anything that we have done or will do or God could not shew the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in the ages to come!

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

 

[heir]

With regards God's will, with regards to the kinds of acts he is look for, see the parable of the sheep and goats:

Matthew 25:31-46 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not [e]take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”​

That is a FUTURE passage of what will happen at the second coming. Those who will be blessed and allowed to enter the kingdom are those that will bless Israel in the Great Tribulation/the time of Jacob's trouble. And those who don't will be cast into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. It has NOTHING to do with OUR salvation or the but now in which we live!

 

[heir]

So then - do you believe sin and forgiveness are irrelevant to salvation?

The question I ask you is, what is the gospel of your salvation?

 

[heir]

If forgiveness is relevant then so is sin. For what are you forgiven but your sins? And if you aren't forgiven then you don't have salvation.

2000 years ago, God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them (2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV). Sin is not the issue. The issue is your belief or unbelief in the event that took place in your stead (Romans 4:25 KJV). Have you trusted the Lord believing the good news that is the power of God to save you? If not, why not?

 

[heir]

Christ teaches that if you do not forgive others then your own forgiveness is revoked.

Not to us, He doesn't. Your words do not becometh the gospel of Christ. You need to get saved and get them to line up!

 

[heir]

If you know that, then you shouldn't have a problem with the OP where I point out that this is a condition/requirement of forgiveness, and thereby of salvation.

You are wrong.

 

[heir]

If you acknowledge that Christ taught that to be forgiven you must forgive - then you are acknowledging a condition of salvation. See Matthew 18. And you have already acknowledged that forgiveness is relevant to salvation.

Forgiveness is relevant to salvation. The good news is that forgiveness is a done deal!

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;