Works, Salvation, Merit

[csuguy]

The parable of the lost sheep IS scripture, it says that the Good Shepherd has a 100 per cent record, nobody gets lost.

The prayer that Christ prayed IS scripture, it says Christ has an 100 record, He has not lost any of the men the Father gave Him. ...which brings me on to Judas ...except the son of perdition.

I didn't say it wasn't. I asked you to provide the scripture references to which you are referring. Can you do this?

I think this is what you are referring to, but it isn't a parable:

John 18:1-9 When Jesus had spoken these words, He went forth with His disciples over the [a]ravine of the Kidron, where there was a garden, in which He entered with His disciples. 2 Now Judas also, who was [c]betraying Him, knew the place, for Jesus had often met there with His disciples. 3 Judas then, having received the Roman [d]cohort and officers from the chief priests and the Pharisees, *came there with lanterns and torches and weapons. 4 So Jesus, knowing all the things that were coming upon Him, went forth and *said to them, “Whom do you seek?” 5 They answered Him, “Jesus the Nazarene.” He *said to them, “I am He.” And Judas also, who was betraying Him, was standing with them. 6 So when He said to them, “I am He,” they drew back and fell to the ground. 7 Therefore He again asked them, “Whom do you seek?” And they said, “Jesus the Nazarene.” 8 Jesus answered, “I told you that I am He; so if you seek Me, let these go their way,” 9 to fulfill the word which He spoke, “Of those whom You have given Me I lost not one.” 10 Simon Peter then, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest’s slave, and cut off his right ear; and the slave’s name was Malchus. 11 So Jesus said to Peter, “Put the sword into the sheath; the cup which the Father has given Me, shall I not drink it?”​

If this is what you are referring to, this is not a statement concerning the nature of the church in the future. Rather, he is limiting the scope of that statement to the disciples he had during his ministry on earth - and he is here referring to their physical well-being as opposed to their spiritual well-being, he is ensuring that they are not likewise crucified with him at this time (though they obviously die later, some of them crucified)

He fits Hebrews 6 very well, that scripture says many things but it doesn't say that one who would fall away was saved....no it doesn't.

All of Hebrews 6 would fit Judas, he had been enlightened etc but he never was saved, there are people like that.

Read it again. Hebrew 6 describes one who has been enlightened, received the Holy Spirit, and has tasted the word of God and his power. This can be no other than someone who truly was a Christian - else they would not have had the Holy Spirit or have been enlightened.

Saved...well are you saved or not? if you fell away would you say that yesterday Jesus saved me but today I am lost?

Doesn't make sense

Can you have everlasting life for just a fortnight? the truth is in the term itself. Jesus says you are in His hands...who can take you out? you are in the Father's hand and He is greater than all.

Stop wobbling, start rejoicing.

We do not have salvation here and now - salvation is something that occurs in the future. That is why Jesus says that only the one who does the will of the Father will be saved. That is why we are told to continue to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. That is why it says that the one who perseveres will be saved.

 

[musterion]

No contradiction with my position here, moving on



No contradiction with my position here, moving on



Last but not least - there is still no contradiction with my position... You need to explain why you think these scriptures contradict my position, because nothing in the text contradicts me.



I am preaching salvation and its requirements. For it is clear that though Christ died for all, that all might be saved, yet not all are saved. Many will perish and be cast into hell, including fallen Christians.

Christ died on the cross - but this doesn't change his earlier teachings about the kingdom and salvation. You are foolish to assert such a thing. He preached about the end times and what the judgement will be - not what it won't be.

You know where I stand, so let me make sure I understand where you are:

1. How is eternal life in Christ received? i.e., What must we do to be saved?

2. Once received, can eternal life be somehow lost or forfeited? Can the believer go from having eternal life in Christ to ending up in the Lake of Fire?

3. If #2 is "yes," what must the believer do to ensure he/she remains in Christ?

 

[csuguy]

You know where I stand, so let me make sure I understand where you are:

1. How is eternal life in Christ received? i.e., What must we do to be saved?

God "will render to each person according to their deeds" - the one who persists in doing good until the end shall receive eternal life. (Matthew 16:24-27; Romans 2:6-11) The parable of the sheep and the goats give the best representation of this, IMHO (see Matthew 25). Faith without works cannot save you (James 2).

2. Once received, can eternal life be somehow lost or forfeited? Can the believer go from having eternal life in Christ to ending up in the Lake of Fire?

3. If #2 is "yes," what must the believer do to ensure he/she remains in Christ?

Eternal life is the reward one receives after the judgement (again, the parable of the sheep and goats demonstrates this). Salvation is not something one receives here and now - but only the promise thereof, with the condition that one pursue what is good and right until the end - doing God's will.

Could someone theoretically lose their eternal reward after the judgment? I don't think so, but scripture doesn't really say one way or the other.

 

[Totton Linnet]

I didn't say it wasn't. I asked you to provide the scripture references to which you are referring. Can you do this?

I think this is what you are referring to, but it isn't a parable:

John 18:1-9 When Jesus had spoken these words, He went forth with His disciples over the [a]ravine of the Kidron, where there was a garden, in which He entered with His disciples. 2 Now Judas also, who was [c]betraying Him, knew the place, for Jesus had often met there with His disciples. 3 Judas then, having received the Roman [d]cohort and officers from the chief priests and the Pharisees, *came there with lanterns and torches and weapons. 4 So Jesus, knowing all the things that were coming upon Him, went forth and *said to them, “Whom do you seek?” 5 They answered Him, “Jesus the Nazarene.” He *said to them, “I am He.” And Judas also, who was betraying Him, was standing with them. 6 So when He said to them, “I am He,” they drew back and fell to the ground. 7 Therefore He again asked them, “Whom do you seek?” And they said, “Jesus the Nazarene.” 8 Jesus answered, “I told you that I am He; so if you seek Me, let these go their way,” 9 to fulfill the word which He spoke, “Of those whom You have given Me I lost not one.” 10 Simon Peter then, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest’s slave, and cut off his right ear; and the slave’s name was Malchus. 11 So Jesus said to Peter, “Put the sword into the sheath; the cup which the Father has given Me, shall I not drink it?”​

If this is what you are referring to, this is not a statement concerning the nature of the church in the future. Rather, he is limiting the scope of that statement to the disciples he had during his ministry on earth - and he is here referring to their physical well-being as opposed to their spiritual well-being, he is ensuring that they are not likewise crucified with him at this time (though they obviously die later, some of them crucified)



Read it again. Hebrew 6 describes one who has been enlightened, received the Holy Spirit, and has tasted the word of God and his power. This can be no other than someone who truly was a Christian - else they would not have had the Holy Spirit or have been enlightened.



We do not have salvation here and now - salvation is something that occurs in the future. That is why Jesus says that only the one who does the will of the Father will be saved. That is why we are told to continue to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. That is why it says that the one who perseveres will be saved.

Then your testimony is that you are not saved...so how can you judge the quality of salvation whether or not it is eternal?....the disciples in the NT knew they were saved, so do we.

 

[patrick jane]

Then your testimony is that you are not saved...so how can you judge the quality of salvation whether or not it is eternal....the disciples in the NT knew they were saved.

Praise Jesus - and good post -

 

[Zeke]

Esoteric denial won't make it go away traditionalist. Christ within was, is, will always be the real intent of the motif of Jesus.

 

[csuguy]

Then your testimony is that you are not saved...so how can you judge the quality of salvation whether or not it is eternal?....the disciples in the NT knew they were saved, so do we.

They knew they had the promise of salvation, as do I. You ignore their testimony which tells you that there are conditions on salvation - that you will only be saved if you do good deeds in accordance with the Father's will. Your denial of their teachings is evident by the fact that you deny those things I said concerning salvation in that post - each of those were scriptural quotes.

You can lead a horse to water...

 

[patrick jane]

They knew they had the promise of salvation, as do I. You ignore their testimony which tells you that there are conditions on salvation - that you will only be saved if you do good deeds in accordance with the Father's will.

You can lead a horse to water...

if the horse don't drink the water you provide then it ain't thirsty - :deadhorse:

 

[csuguy]

if the horse don't drink the water you provide then it ain't thirsty - :deadhorse:

Indeed - you have made it quite clear that you do not thirst for God's Word.

 

[turbosixx]

Then your testimony is that you are not saved...so how can you judge the quality of salvation whether or not it is eternal?....the disciples in the NT knew they were saved, so do we.

Paul realized he hadn't recieved his crown yet and understood he could lose it if he didn't run in such a way as to win.

1 Cor. 9:23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

If once you believe you are saved and can't lose it, why would he tell them to run in such a was as to win, aren't they arlready winners? He then proves his point by using the example of those who left Egypt. They were in Moses' household, Heb. 3:5-6, just as we are in Christ's household, yet they did not enter the promised land due to disobedience.

10:1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness........11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.

Why is he giving them an example of those who did not make it to the promised land if he understood Christians had already had their ticket punched to the promised land, and could not fall as those in the OT?

 

[csuguy]

Great post turbo :thumb:

 

[1Way1Truth1Life]

Christians have eternal life and salvation now. The seed is planted here and now. But we must continue to work out what God has worked in, beating our bodies into submission. We must not turn back, as while still on earth those who once did good but turn to evil their good will no longer be remembered but will suffer for their evil and vice versa. And we also look forward to the full realization of looking face to face instead of in a mirror darkly to salvation and eternal life after we all go through the judgement time, whether a pass in Christ or not.

 

[Right Divider]

Then you are ignoring Christ's own teachings on the matter in favor of your preconceived views. You can lead a horse to water...

Christ also taught obedience to the Mosaic Law.

How are you doing with that one?

 

[Totton Linnet]

They knew they had the promise of salvation, as do I. You ignore their testimony which tells you that there are conditions on salvation - that you will only be saved if you do good deeds in accordance with the Father's will. Your denial of their teachings is evident by the fact that you deny those things I said concerning salvation in that post - each of those were scriptural quotes.

You can lead a horse to water...

No no this is not good enough, first get saved then you can start worrying about the finer points of discipleship. You cain't even begin with these things until you settle accounts with God and you get a clean slate.

You are like the man who wants to the fly a jumbo having read the manual....the passengers don't think so.

How can you teach about salvation if you are not saved?? that's blind leading the blind.

First our sins are washed away at the cross, then we receive a new life from God, actually Christ imparts to us His own divine life, we are regenerated, born again, filled with the Holy Ghost.

Then you are ready to go.

 

[God's Truth]

A false-dilemma is usually presented to us whenever we speak of the relationship of works to salvation: either Christ's sacrifice is sufficient and our sins have been paid for without us having to do anything, or else Christ's sacrifice was insufficient and one must earn their salvation.

These are the works we no longer have to do:

The Burnt Offering; The Grain Offering; The Fellowship Offering; The Sin Offering; The Guilt Offering; Dietary Laws; Purification After Childbirth; Cleansing From Infectious Skin Diseases; Cleansing From Mildew; Discharges Causing Uncleanness; The Day of Atonement; Rules for Priests; The Sabbath; Firstfruits; The Passover and Unleavened Bread; Feast of Weeks; Feast of Trumpets; Feast of Tabernacles; Oil and Bread Set Before The LORD; the Sabbath Year; The Year of Jubilee; Circumcision.

 

[God's Truth]

They knew they had the promise of salvation, as do I. You ignore their testimony which tells you that there are conditions on salvation - that you will only be saved if you do good deeds in accordance with the Father's will. Your denial of their teachings is evident by the fact that you deny those things I said concerning salvation in that post - each of those were scriptural quotes.

You can lead a horse to water...

Amen.

Totton is lost in her false gospel about not having to obey Jesus.

 

[God's Truth]

Christians have eternal life and salvation now. The seed is planted here and now. But we must continue to work out what God has worked in, beating our bodies into submission. We must not turn back, as while still on earth those who once did good but turn to evil their good will no longer be remembered but will suffer for their evil and vice versa. And we also look forward to the full realization of looking face to face instead of in a mirror darkly to salvation and eternal life after we all go through the judgement time, whether a pass in Christ or not.

Jesus saves us all on his own, and he chooses whom he saves.

Jesus tells us whom he saves and why.

Jesus tells us what we have to do to be chosen for salvation.

If we obey Jesus we will receive the Holy Spirit:


John 14:23 Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

If we obey Jesus we will receive the Holy Spirit:


John 15:14 You are my friends if you do what I command.


If we obey Jesus we will receive the Holy Spirit:


Matthew 12:50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."


If we obey Jesus we will receive the Holy Spirit:


Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."


If we obey Jesus we will receive the Holy Spirit:


John 13:17 Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.


If we obey Jesus we will receive the Holy Spirit:


Luke 11:28 He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."


If we obey Jesus we will receive the Holy Spirit:


But He answered and said to them, "My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it."

 

[Totton Linnet]

Amen.

Totton is lost in her false gospel about not having to obey Jesus.

You are damned by your own testimony...it will haunt you on judgement day

we must obey or be damned
we must obey or be damned
we must obey or be damned

You are in disobedience. And odds on your next post will be a lie

 

[csuguy]

Christ also taught obedience to the Mosaic Law.

How are you doing with that one?

Matthew 5:17-19 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not [h]the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever [j]keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[1Way1Truth1Life]

Jesus saves us all on his own, and he chooses whom he saves.

Jesus tells us whom he saves and why.

Jesus tells us what we have to do to be chosen for salvation.

If we obey Jesus we will receive the Holy Spirit:


John 14:23 Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

If we obey Jesus we will receive the Holy Spirit:


John 15:14 You are my friends if you do what I command.


If we obey Jesus we will receive the Holy Spirit:


Matthew 12:50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."


If we obey Jesus we will receive the Holy Spirit:


Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."


If we obey Jesus we will receive the Holy Spirit:


John 13:17 Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.


If we obey Jesus we will receive the Holy Spirit:


Luke 11:28 He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."


If we obey Jesus we will receive the Holy Spirit:


But He answered and said to them, "My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it."

Yes exactly.