Works, Salvation, Merit

[patrick jane]

Christ teaches that if you do not forgive others then your own forgiveness is revoked.

oh, thanks. i never knew that -:jawdrop:

 

[csuguy]

oh, thanks. i never knew that -:jawdrop:

If you know that, then you shouldn't have a problem with the OP where I point out that this is a condition/requirement of forgiveness, and thereby of salvation.

 

[patrick jane]

If you know that, then you shouldn't have a problem with the OP where I point out that this is a condition/requirement of forgiveness, and thereby of salvation.

it is a false dilemma because it's not a dilemma, Jesus Christ Saves Completely -

that's my first post i think to the op. I think i was saying i don't think there is a condition. me forgiving a trespass of another isn't one - i maintain that belief/faith in Christ Jesus' finished work on the Cross is the only requirement. Whether you forgive bob or i forgive tony has no bearing on salvation - you're confused and i leave you, cuz you already know -

 

[csuguy]

that's my first post i think to the op. I think i was saying i don't think there is a condition. me forgiving a trespass of another isn't one - i maintain that belief/faith in Christ Jesus' finished work on the Cross is the only requirement. Whether you forgive bob or i forgive tony has no bearing on salvation - you're confused and i leave you, cuz you already know -

If you acknowledge that Christ taught that to be forgiven you must forgive - then you are acknowledging a condition of salvation. See Matthew 18. And you have already acknowledged that forgiveness is relevant to salvation.

 

[Totton Linnet]

The parable is concerning the kingdom of God and of the judgement. All three parables in Matthew 25 are addressing the same thing.

Trying to dismiss it because it speaks of 'servants' rather than 'friends' is silly. While we are considered more than just servants, that does not mean that we are not servants. You yourself recognize that Paul calls himself a servant/slave.

You are grasping at straws to dismiss the consistent teaching of the scriptures.

So then....the parable of the lost sheep was just a fairy tale, and Jesus lied to His Father when He asserted that not one had been lost.

 

[csuguy]

So then....the parable of the lost sheep was just a fairy tale, and Jesus lied to His Father when He asserted that not one had been lost.

Can you provide the specific reference(s) to which you are referring?

You apear to be reading OSAS into these passages - but OSAS contradicts the scriptures. Scripture warns again and again against falling away. Example:

Hebrews 6:4-8 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, [d]since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7 For ground that drinks the rain which often [e]falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close [f]to being cursed, and [g]it ends up being burned.​

 

[musterion]

We are asked to carry our cross daily and follow him

Dead people who've already been crucified can't carry crosses and have no need to do so.

 

[csuguy]

Dead people who've already been crucified can't carry crosses and have no need to do so.

Then it is a good thing we are alive in Christ

 

[patrick jane]

If you acknowledge that Christ taught that to be forgiven you must forgive - then you are acknowledging a condition of salvation. See Matthew 18. And you have already acknowledged that forgiveness is relevant to salvation.

no i don't acknowledge that and i don't acknowledge a list of additional conditions. you're focused on sin, forgiveness and repentance. have fun, i'm way past that - :wave:

 

[musterion]

Judicially, the cross is forever behind the member of Christ, just as it is forever behind Him.

To say we who are His Body must yet carry a cross can be taken to imply, even if you don't mean this, that we're still subject to the death and judgment the cross represented because His taking believers to the cross with Him was somehow insufficient.

 

[csuguy]

no i don't acknowledge that and i don't acknowledge a list of additional conditions. you're focused on sin, forgiveness and repentance. have fun, i'm way past that - :wave:

Then you are ignoring Christ's own teachings on the matter in favor of your preconceived views. You can lead a horse to water...

 

[patrick jane]

Then you are ignoring Christ's own teachings on the matter in favor of your preconceived views. You can lead a horse to water...

how many teachings are you ignoring - after resurrection and ascension ?
i don't ignore Jesus's teachings, but thanks for your judgement, your concern and really helping Brother Vinny to find what he is seeking -

congratulations and I forgive you -:dunce:

 

[patrick jane]

Judicially, the cross is forever behind the member of Christ, just as it is forever behind Him.

To say we who are His Body must yet carry a cross can be taken to imply, even if you don't mean this, that we're still subject to the death and judgment the cross represented because His taking believers to the cross with Him was somehow insufficient.

exactly, thank you - :first:

 

[csuguy]

Judicially, the cross is forever behind the member of Christ, just as it is forever behind Him.

To say we who are His Body must yet carry a cross can be taken to imply, even if you don't mean this, that we're still subject to the death and judgment the cross represented because His taking believers to the cross with Him was somehow insufficient.

Or you can understand it in the same sense as the matter of forgiveness - it is a condition/requirement of salvation, but you by no means earn it. At any rate, he taught this:

Matthew 16:24-27 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 25 For whoever wishes to save his [v]life will lose it; but whoever loses his [w]life for My sake will find it. 26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then [x]repay every man according to his [y]deeds.​

There is no doubt as to what he is here saying: you must deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow him - giving your life. Only then will you have salvation.

Before you claim this means you are earning salvation - recall that our present lives are relatively short. Scriptures likens our lives to the grass - here today and gone tomorrow. But via salvation we have eternal life. So the condition/requirement is so small in comparison to the gift that it is practically non-existent.

 

[musterion]

Or

No, sorry. There is no "or" here.

you can understand it in the same sense as the matter of forgiveness - it is a condition/requirement of salvation, but you by no means earn it. At any rate, he taught this:

Matthew 16:24-27 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 25 For whoever wishes to save his [v]life will lose it; but whoever loses his [w]life for My sake will find it. 26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then [x]repay every man according to his [y]deeds.​

There is no doubt as to what he is here saying: you must deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow him - giving your life.

He wasn't speaking to our about us when He said that. You already refuse to believe that so I'll make no attempt to convince you.

Before you claim this means you are earning salvation - recall that our present lives are relatively short. Scriptures likens our lives to the grass - here today and gone tomorrow. But via salvation we have eternal life. So the condition/requirement is so small in comparison to the gift that it is practically non-existent.

Then Paul lied or was badly deluded when he said (claiming inspiration of Christ) that all sins of the members of His Body are forgiven (Col 1:13; 2:13; 3:13), leaving nothing left to earn, which is exactly what you are saying while trying to not say it. You pick - was Paul deluded or lying?

 

[csuguy]

He wasn't speaking to our about us when He said that. You already refuse to believe that so I'll make no attempt to convince you.

So you call yourself a Christian but throw out Christ's teachings... good luck with that.

Then Paul lied or was badly deluded when he said (claiming inspiration of Christ) that all sins of the members of His Body are forgiven (Col 1:13; 2:13; 3:13). You pick.

Christ died for the sins of all - yet not all will be saved. There is no contradiction between the scriptures here - only between your understanding of them and the reality.

 

[musterion]

So you call yourself a Christian but throw out Christ's teachings... good luck with that.

I throw out nothing; I just don't claim what God has said isn't mine. Anyway, deal with Paul.

Romans 16:25-26

2 Cor 5:16

Ephesians 3:8-9

Christ died for the sins of all - yet not all will be saved. There is no contradiction between the scriptures here - only between your understanding of them and the reality.

You're preaching probation, not salvation. You seek to put the cross back onto the shoulders of those who have already died on it in Christ.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Can you provide the specific reference(s) to which you are referring?

You apear to be reading OSAS into these passages - but OSAS contradicts the scriptures. Scripture warns again and again against falling away. Example:

Hebrews 6:4-8 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, [d]since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7 For ground that drinks the rain which often [e]falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close [f]to being cursed, and [g]it ends up being burned.​

The parable of the lost sheep IS scripture, it says that the Good Shepherd has a 100 per cent record, nobody gets lost.

The prayer that Christ prayed IS scripture, it says Christ has an 100 record, He has not lost any of the men the Father gave Him. ...which brings me on to Judas ...except the son of perdition.

He fits Hebrews 6 very well, that scripture says many things but it doesn't say that one who would fall away was saved....no it doesn't.

All of Hebrews 6 would fit Judas, he had been enlightened etc but he never was saved, there are people like that.

Saved...well are you saved or not? if you fell away would you say that yesterday Jesus saved me but today I am lost?

Doesn't make sense

Can you have everlasting life for just a fortnight? the truth is in the term itself. Jesus says you are in His hands...who can take you out? you are in the Father's hand and He is greater than all.

Stop wobbling, start rejoicing.

 

[kmoney]

A false-dilemma is usually presented to us whenever we speak of the relationship of works to salvation: either Christ's sacrifice is sufficient and our sins have been paid for without us having to do anything, or else Christ's sacrifice was insufficient and one must earn their salvation. Faith-only folks defend the first and criticize anything else as if it were the second - as if people were trying to earn their way into heaven. They do not consider the other option: that while we do not earn salvation, that we do not earn forgiveness, there are requirements to God's gifts.

Let us consider the gift of forgiveness. In a parable of a king settling his accounts (Matthew 18:21-35) Jesus speaks of a man who owed 10,000 talents but was unable to pay the debt. He is forgiven this debt by the king. However, this same man is owed 100 denarii by another who cannot pay him back. Rather than show him the same mercy he has recieved, he has the other man put in prison until he can pay back his debt. Upon hearing of this, the king revokes his forgiveness from the first man and has him thrown in prison until he can pay back all of his debts.

There are two important points to this story. First it makes clear that there is at least one requirement to the gift of forgiveness: you must forgive others their sins when they repent. If you don't, then neither will God forgive you. Secondly, the story points out the vast difference in debt that the first man had to the king versus what the first man was owed by another. 10,000 talents vs 100 denarii. So one cannot say if the first man had forgiven the second that that he thereby earned his own forgiveness.

And this is the key to understanding why it can be said that there are requirements to salvation, but that we do not earn salvation. God's blessings and promises to us are so much greater than what is required of us. God forgives us all of our sins when we repent, adopts us as his sons and daughters, and makes us co-heirs with Christ of the Kingdom. He asks us to forgive those who repent. Christ gave his life so to reconcile us to God and to give us eternal life. We are asked to carry our cross daily and follow him, to use our lives to do God's will.

God's gifts have requirements - but so great is the gift in comparison to the requirements that we cannot even begin to say that we have somehow earned it.

Nice post. :up:

:think:

 

[csuguy]

I throw out nothing; I just don't claim what God has said isn't mine. Anyway, deal with Paul.

Romans 16:25-26 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;

No contradiction with my position here, moving on

2 Cor 5:16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one [a]according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.

No contradiction with my position here, moving on

Ephesians 3:8-9 To me, the very least of all [a]saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, 9 and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things;

Last but not least - there is still no contradiction with my position... You need to explain why you think these scriptures contradict my position, because nothing in the text contradicts me.

You're preaching probation, not salvation. You seek to put the cross back onto the shoulders of those who have already died on it in Christ.

I am preaching salvation and its requirements. For it is clear that though Christ died for all, that all might be saved, yet not all are saved. Many will perish and be cast into hell, including fallen Christians.

Christ died on the cross - but this doesn't change his earlier teachings about the kingdom and salvation. You are foolish to assert such a thing. He preached about the end times and what the judgement will be - not what it won't be.